Permanently damaging the ability of someone to experience a full sex life

[IdaBWells]

It really, really bothers me that with ROGD in girls or any of these conditions where teens are taking cross-sex hormones, they are not experiencing their natural puberty and then they may potentially have permanent changes which will prevent them having the full experience of sex and sexuality that they should have had.

It bothers me because

1. It is a human rights issue

1. The fact that adults are making decisions that they understand but an undeveloped teen cannot, about how this could seriously affect their sex lives, for ever.

1. The over involvement of adults into a child’s future sex life which is for the individual alone to make decisions about - ONLY.

1. Adults know that they are creating a situation where these young adults are going to have to explain their body changes to potential sex partners and that other people are going to have questions about how their body functions etc. In other words their privacy is permanently invaded really, this person becomes a sexually curiousity to certain people. Can young teens understand that?

1. Apparently permanent sexual dysfunction can be a result of transition, lack of orgasm or other issues.

1. They are of course usually sterilized if they take a certain formula of drugs.

I currently have three teens of both sexes. I see so much mental development happening at the same time as their physical development. Each year they mature so much. We just don’t know what interrupting natural puberty does to the brain. Then of course trans kids are not experiencing puberty at the same time as their peers, so they are out of step in terms of physical, mental, emotional, sexual and intellectual development.

The whole thing makes my blood boil as we are removing their right to their own rate of development. If their puberty has been halted from 12-16 and then they get the cross-sex hormones, where is the moment or timeframe when they are caught up enough on these years of development that they have missed that they are suddenly able to understand the magnitude of the decisions they are making?

This could explain how once they are on the “medical pathway” there is no turning around. Where in this process are these young people going to have a chance to reach a level of mature critical thinking?

Every single child going through this process on the NHS, where they transition or not must be followed for outcomes (which I hope is happening but I fear is not) because we don’t know what most 28 year old transitioners think about the decisions they made at 18.

I think that the lawsuits relating to this will be the death of the NHS.

Conveniently, the conservatives may be able to blame the destruction of the NHS on the left wing...

The lack of it being spoken about it really scary too. It's another part of the debate that is instantly shut down due to the privacy of the topic.

I don't understand why medical ethics aren't taking more of a stand about it? I haven't done any research, but it does seem that most people are pretty gung-ho about SRS and getting trans identifying people on a medical path.

The effect on sexual desire and enjoyment, I'd like to learn more about.

All your points are valid and under discussed. It's an area of mass denial I think. Don't talk about it, and it won't exist.

I completely agree with you OP. It is horrific to think of the harm potentially being done to these children if they are put on a medical pathway.

Someone else pointed out on another thread the 'sunk cost fallacy' of this in young adults. So if a 28 year old transitioner now secretly wishes they hadn't made the decision at 18, they will convince themselves that it was absolutely the right thing to have done because the alternative view doesn't bear thinking about.

I also think the argument that young teenaged girls can be prescribed the pill without their parents' consent so they should be allowed access to puberty blockers / cross sex hormones without their parents knowing is hugely flawed. The pill has been around for many years and if it is prescribed to an under 16 it is same sex hormones. That said, do we know what the long term effects of early use of the contraceptive pill are? (I can't remember when the ruling was made to allow this)

There are drug companies and investors who will gain extraordinary return on creating life-long patients.

I think it was (now banned) Thebewilderness who saw puberty blockers as this generations Thalidomide.

It's just so obviously wrong. No one is 'born in the wrong body' and in no time ever throughout history have you ever had childen believing they were.
It's a collective madness and these children are the victims.

I agree op

We are robbing our children of a future with a normal healthy sex life. It's rape culture really. Their bodies are just there to house a penis or a penis is just a piece of flesh to shove in a hole. The ability to consent, the fact it's supoosed to b enjoyable for both parties , means nothing. All that matters is a physical.ability to have sex .

No one they will ever meet who's kind and decent will want sex with someome who won't enjoy it.

What's that leaving them with.

OK, I found this, interesting as it seems refreshingly honest and open about it.

There is a plethora of health related effects. It's crazy what people are voluntarily putting themselves through (and not so voluntarily).

I might have to delete my search history now though!

www.transgenderpulse.com/forums/topic/20258-effect-of-hormones-on-penis-function/

It also concerns me that, whilst the most obvious changes during puberty are physical/sexual, not enough research has been done into the massive brain/emotional/thought processes that go on during puberty and the effect of hormones on these. The emergence of critical thinking, risk assessment, empathetic response, measured thought. These things are so fundamental to the future mental health of anyone - let alone a person with gender dysphoria. By interfering too early we could be adversely affecting the person's holistic outcome 10 or 15 years down the line.

Watching and waiting and counselling for five or so more years could mean a much more fulfilling, well rounded and happier seventy plus years.

Nothing will ever persuade me that mutilating healthy bodies and setting children on the path of lifelong medicalisation can be a good thing.

I think because I work in the NHS and see people struggling with chronic illness, or having their lives turned upside down by the onset of something serious or a bad accident etc I value good health above everything. It's true, I should take better care of my own health, I could do with losing a stone and getting fitter. But as a family we eat healthily etc and I have always impressed on my children how lucky they are to be born with perfect healthy bodies and to take care of those bodies. I am implacably opposed to use of recreational drugs for instance. I think my children agree and they are careful not to overdo alcohol when out with their friends (someone has to make sure everyone gets home safely, that someone is YOU - a bit mean maybe, conferring the responsibility on my teens but I shamelessly do). I know they might, even so, fall foul of peer pressure and experiment but I hope they won't. I also encourage them to view sexual health as part of taking care of their bodies, (and minds). I tell them that having the gift of good health is the starter for everything they want to achieve in life - people who have to deal with health problems before they even get on the starting blocks are always going to have so much more of a struggle.

So I will NEVER accept that healthy young bodies should be abused like this and I don't understand how anyone could think it is a good idea. I can't understand parents going along with it (notwithstanding the suicide blackmail).

The court cases are going to be very complex due to so many people having a part to play, I think there will have to be a collective apology by the NHS and a compensation package like with the blood products scandal - which has taken years to achieve any result so don't hold your breathe. In the USA without a single body like the NHS to go for it will be very hard, so many players, from drug companies to individual physicians to individual surgeons to organisations like Planned Parenthood. Where to begin?

I think that the lawsuits relating to this will be the death of the NHS.

Do we have any further figures on numbers of children treated with puberty blockers? About a year ago, MoS did some research and reported 800 in England, presumably via Tavistock. So that excludes Scotland and anyone going to private clinics and is a year out-of-date.

Maybe time for some new FOIs?

Widening the social distance between parents and children and preventing parents from safeguarding their children is the first step towards normalising paedophilia and paving the way towards societal acceptance of it.

This is where all this is heading. Next it will be "you're paedophiliphobic for preventing your child from engaging in a loving relationship".

Creating groups of non sexually demanding youngsters who can be separated from their parents and bought with expensive toys will be ideal for paedophiles.

It's little wonder the authorities aren't objecting. How many people in positions of authority have been identified as child abusers? No wonder there's so many attempts from so many directions to close down the conversation.

DD1's bf identifies as a trans boy.
Myself and the parents of another close friend of this child were talking about it yesterday.
Tom (I'll call her) lost her dad to an accident, mum has always struggled emotionally, family was in crisis even before dad's death. Tom was cutting from an early age. Tom's younger brothers are cutting themselves and stealing. One even though they are still at primary school! Social services are involved.
Tom stereotypical female behaviours and interests. No male friends at all. Tom's male side is only expressed through physical appearance. Tom is the primary carer for her brothers. Tom has other mental health issues such as anxiety.
My daughter and her other friend keep Tom grounded in normal stuff. They have fun.
They do love and support her.... Unlike the internet "friends" she connected with just before she realised she was actually a boy.

I'm terrified for toms future. Especially once she goes to uni. You know what groups she'll end up in and the way she'll be pushed. I guess as an adult that's her choice. I'm just praying she keeps off the cross sex hormones for now. They can't even drink or smoke ffs.

Anyone who recommends life changing treatment to a child as vulnerable as Tom is a child abuser.

Fuck gender Tom.
Breaks my heart.

Talking from my own personal experience here

I came out as a lesbian at the age of 30. I was married to a man from the age of 20 and would never allow myself to acknowledge my homosexuality. The level of denial was deep, and at times took some serious reproach and self hating to suppress. Throughout all that time I was somewhat sexually disfunctional. I hated having to have sex, and hated my own sexed body as a result. I thought there was something wrong with me and it caused me a lot of distress. I even went through a stage when I really did question if I was trans, even wondered if I would be happier getting my breasts removed.

Then, when I finally came out, after having a nervous breakdown, I got out of the marriage and started to accept myself. I finally discovered that yes, I do have a sexuality, quite a strong one actually, and experimenting, with the right sex of person, helped me come to terms with my own body. It was an amazing transformation, suddenly I was feeling desire, and getting pleasure, and despite all the anxiety from being stultified for so long, I finally felt like I fitted in my own body, and my body was a positive thing, rather than being a thing that my mind couldn’t figure out.

I wonder how many lesbian and gay kids will miss out forever on discovering themselves because their bodies have been ruined before they even get the opportunity to understand them? That nervous breakdown I had, that had me standing on a railway bridge waiting for a train to come, I wonder how a person could get through that when they’ve nowhere to go? I had a marriage to extricate myself from, and a DC to raise alone, but at least my body was intact and just waiting for me to find the right way to use it. A child who has had their pubity blocked and cross sex hormones can never have that outcome.

Why isn’t anybody listening to people like me, and all the other adults who have battled to understand and accept themselves? Nobody is born in the wrong body, they are born in their body, and all the drugs and surgery in the world won’t change that fact. It’s not the body that’s wrong, it just takes a bit or unpicking to work out why the brain thinks it is.

Bit of unpicking I mean.

Oh, Kat. That is such a sad story. Poor Tom. It's the opposite of an authentic self, isn't it?

I keep thinking about the 'castrati' the classical male singers popular mid 16th - 19th century (until it was outlawed). Their high singing voices were produced by castration before puberty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

I remember a programme about 'the last Castrato' on Radio 4 years ago (1990s?) and being shocked and astonished that anyone would be coerced (or forced) to go through that for the want of an 'angelic' singing voice. I remember at the conclusion of the programme that there was consensus that no matter how beautiful the voice, 'today' in our 'more enlightened times' we would view doing this to someone with horror.

And yet here we are...

Absolutely.

Puberty is obviously an incredibly important stage for everyone to go through, and there's clearly way more going on than just growing boobs and pubic hair. It is a really difficult time for most (all?) young people and it would be lovely if there was a less distressing way for a child to turn into an adult, but there isn't.

Denying a child a natural puberty when there are no medical issues that would otherwise prevent that happening is so obviously a violation of their human rights and it is horrifying that anyone thinks this is something a minor could possibly consent to.

Leaving this clip of Susie Green here, with no comment. Watch from 38:58.

Teenagers see things very much in black/white. There is no shade of grey. I recall as a teenager being adamant I never wanted children and planned to be sterilised as soon as I could. Two decades later I was desperately going through IVF because the desire for a baby became all-consuming. Had I made that decision in my late teens I would have been suffering severe mental difficulties by now.

i don't think we will see the true fall-out from putting teenagers on this (shortened) lifelong path of being sterile and sexually disfunctional until they reach the age of around mid-30s, which I believe (based purely on my own experience) is when women begin to understand and realise their full sexual potential.

We are beginning to see some questioning and issues, such as the transgender people in the USA who are suffering from bone damage and osteosperosis in their mid 30s due to the cocktail of hormones they have been taking.

I think it will be another 15 or so years before the full flood of court cases happens. Hopefully by then we may be in more enlightened times/

My children are 3 and 1. I hope with all my heart this madness has passed by the time they reach adolescence.

Kat that is incredibly sad. So many problems and no adults advocating for that poor girl, just mindlessly accepting the mantra that acceptance is the only way to go. It’s so fucking damaging. I’m horrified that people can’t see that.

Badstyley thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry it had to get to that point before you could come out and start to accept yourself - like you, I am incredibly worried about young gay and lesbian people. There are too many people willing to believe in this nonsense. The outcomes are too damaging. Lack of maturity, sexual function or fertility. NO teen should be in a position to make a decision where they can’t possibly understand the future ramifications.

We protect them from these decisions in all other situations by having laws which prevent the worst happening. I know they might be ignored, for example I know many teens (myself included!) do not wait until 16 to have sex, or 18 to drink. The difference is we do not encourage or condone it Yes there is potential for harm here; girls could get pregnant, alcohol addiction is a real problem. But nobody “in charge” is saying that this is a good thing to do.

If grown men were encouraging teens to have sex before 16 or giving teens alcohol we would rightly assume this was a Very Big Problem which needed to be dealt with by the police. Grown men telling teens how to force their parents into buying binders, procuring hormones online or supporting them through medical transition - oh no, that’s fine, nothing to see here. The doctor agrees, teachers agree, there’s lovely sparkly charities to support you, you get Special Status at school and amongst your friends.

And those grown men, online? They’re out lobbying and trying to change laws to support you. They’re the ones that love you, the real you. Not your parents, who are desperately trying to stop you going onto a medical pathway that you can’t get off. Your parents just don’t understand the real you. They’re transphobic bigots, like everyone else who even so much as questions any of this.

I am so FUCKING angry about the involvement of perfectly healthy teen bodies in all of this. These men and online groups which say they support trans kids are GROOMING them. Nothing less. It’s child abuse, in plain fucking sight, and instead of pulling up the safeguarding drawbridge the castle walls are being knocked down.

@Hornets yes castrati and eunuchs ....I do wonder about the links between this and the modern practice of transitioning from male to female🤔
Castration before puberty (as with the Castrati) has profound and far-reaching effects on the general physiology

Interesting thread - and some really important contributions.

I have a daughter (aged 20) who has high-functioning autism. Before we knew she was autistic, she thought she was a lesbian, then asexual. Now transgender (no medical interventions yet) and adamant she is asexual, and looks like a pre-pubescent boy. Emotionally she is way behind her peers.

Please don't tell me that there isn't a psychologist out there who wouldn't think that here is someone who is struggling with her sexuality and using transitioning is a means of not growing up? Someone who right now would think being sterilised or never having a sexual relationship is actually a good result?

Will anyone working in a gender clinic explore these issues before giving the go ahead for irreversible treatments?