Surge in trans teens, marketing? And lack of other youth culture?

[PurpleOva]

I have a pre-teen daughter, and we were talking about my youth yesterday. I explained to her about how I found Grunge as a teen and how it remains part of my identity today.

Along with sharing photos of Kurt Cobain rocking his chintzy dresses it got me thinking about the trans phenomenon in the youth of today, and the seeming lack of other youth culture movements for the misfits to cling onto.

Then I found this, which talks about how transgenderism is being marketed to the youth of today:

world.wng.org/content/what_s_behind_the_surge_in_transgender_teens

And this previous thread here about the youth culture link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2965747-Teenagers-and-the-cult-of-otherness

Just to share what's been stewing in my brain this weekend. As I was a sometimes mis-gendered, anxious, depressed and generally out of place misfit in my youth, I can see how if I were that same pre-teen and teen today that the trans community would seem very attractive..... a potential warning for our kids teenage years, which are all too fast approaching for me!

I do wonder sometimes that if we had a youth culture in which cross dressing and make-up were permissible - like glam rock and New Romantics were in the Seventies and Eighties - whether teenagers could just experiment in gender ‘performance’ without actually committing themselves to surgery and a lifetime of medication.

Yes, so many youth cultures had gender bending imagery. The conversation with my daughter started with showing the hair metal bands, with their glam, long hair, make-up and as she pointed out, men in high heels!

That really seems lacking for the current generation... or where it happens It's because the person is "non-binary".

Even going back before the teenage years, I had George from the fantastic five as someone to relate to. I think there are current examples. I know my daughter has some great books with different types of characters, but maybe nothing quite as stark or iconic?

I think this plays a part.

Every generation thinks they’re doing something new, be interesting to see what a bunch of gender fluid teens made of old eps of Top of the Pops.

Yes I believe it plays a massive part. The teen years are the time to find your tribe.

I remember being at a goth market some time ago and noticing how there were as many men dressed up as there were women. It wasn’t cross dressing - and the age range was 5-70+ so not just a youth thing - but the men were every bit as flamboyant. At the time I was only just becoming aware of self ID but I remember thinking about how few outlets there are at the moment for men who like dressing up. Not healthy.

I really have no idea about youth culture now.

Are there artists dressing flamboyantly or challenging gender norms? Especially hetero men?

I agree the teen years are a time of experimentation - with fashion, with identity. It seems that is a traditional way of “finding oneself”. You flirt with all kinds of identities before you find a mash up of everything and settle into yourself.

Options open has always been a good idea.

There are clearly people who will transition via surgery and find their life improves. This is not the same as a 13 year old who feels uncomfortable in their skin. That’s most 13 year olds and the reason most cultures have some kind of rites of passage. You grow into yourself rather than change yourself irreversibly.

A few years ago these kids would have been goths or punks, new romantics, mods, teddy boys...

My dad loved philosophy and usually had a relevant quote (he often quoted the 'Socrates' comment).

These seem suitable:

"They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things - and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning - all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything - they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else. (Aristotle)

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
(From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint". (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." (G.K. Chesterton)

'The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers.' possibly Socrates

The young people i saw recently broadly fitted into: Kimye type luxe sportswear, towie overdone everything with perhaps lip fillers or genderqueer. By genderqueer I mean girls with some stereotypical aspects of a masculine appearance and boys with a bit of makeup on or long hair in a stereotypical feminine style. It’s definitely a ‘look’ because so many young people look the same (though I’m sure it’s deeply individual).

I was like that too when I was a teen. I was very shy but tall, skinny with huge boobs so I was not comfortable in my skin.

Fortunately the 80s was a time of 501s (mens), DMS (only mens back then) and Annie lennox haircuts. Men wore makeup (thanks human league and culture club). Blokes copied Wham. The 70s was even more 'challenging' (new york dolls anyone?)

fekko -some great quotes there. They really do put attitudes of and towards 'youth' in perspective, thank you!

I can't remember who said it, but it reminds me of a quote I heard : when we are young, we are passionate about forging new paths. When we get old, we see they are well-trodden roads.

Fekko love the quotes! I knew the Socrates, but they're all great - old G K in particular.

Fekko those quotes made me smile.

I suppose young people have always done reckless and dangerous things, whether killing themselves/ending up paralysed from motorbike accidents or dead from drug overdoses - there is always something about getting close to the edge.

But the difference about this youth culture is that instead of the 'coolest' pushing things furthest, it seems more like the most sheep-like are being manipulated like puppets by shady older weirdos to make themselves sterile and sexually unappealing.

Less face it - people are attracted to each other for their primary and secondary sex characteristics. Taking hormones/having surgery to appear more like the opposite sex is going to make you far less sexually appealing to everyone apart from the least discerning bisexuals out there.

Yeh I think that’s a big difference - trans may have a youth following but it doesn’t strike me as youth led.

Just bumping this because it resonates so much with me.

There's very little 'sub-culture' for teenagers to hang on to right now.

Even just a decade ago there was 'emo'.

Now you're either 'TOWIE'-boxed both as female or male, or your only other option is 'cos-play' or 'trans'. (I know, I'm not a teenager, and many may state there are other options, but they're pretty invisible right now).

If I was me as a teenager now, I'd be pissed off. My hypothetical parents have already pushed the boundaries of 'gender', 'drugs', etc. Where do I go to have my own space, my 'difference'?

Trans would be appealing.

But previous decades' didn't push people into boxes they'd find difficult to get out of later. You could be 'goth' or 'emo' and not be stuck in a box in your 20's where you'd find it difficult to 'de-transition' out of.

'De-transition' out of being a goth = stop wearing black eyeliner and chains.

'De-transition' out of being 'trans' = denying the 'gender' you said to everyone you'd stepped into.

Much harder to step out of.

'Kids! Try trans - when a tattoo and nose piercing isn't shocking enough (because your gran has them).'

trans may have a youth following but it doesn’t strike me as youth led.

Definitely agree! It feels very different to previous youth trends.

This is really interesting and I do think there is something in it. There aren't alternative role models for the kids who don't quite fit to turn to.

Much as I abhor the trans culture, I disagree with this: previous decades' didn't push people into boxes they'd find difficult to get out of later

In the 90s I lived in a part of Dublin where the kids were dropping like flies from heroin and aids from dirty needles.

I looked at them and thought how safe my own teenage hippy rebellion had been, smoking pot and the only risk from "free love" were STDs that were easily cured with antibiotics.

There are other damaging subcultures today, the self harming and pro-Ana stuff.

I found this article from 2014, it's about Youth Culture, and makes it all seem.very internet driven and vacuous today.

www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/mar/20/youth-subcultures-where-have-they-gone

Interesting PurpleOva and I have felt horribly saddened that venues like The Astoria are all closing down - the size that could be packed out by an alternative band, and now it is all about the O2 and televised Glastonbury. Most night clubs have also now closed down since they also were no longer viable, there is nowhere for young people to meet face-to-face, find their tribe and be part of a scene.

Also everything is so bloody slick now isn't it? You need to have the shit bands playing to an actual audience to fertilise the ground for the better ones. Bands now record before they've got decent chops or worked out arrangements through playing.

Mention of it being a "tribe" for adolescents finding their identity on Women's hour today, when talking about "rapid onset gender dysphoria".

I agree.

I was a goth until my late 20s. I say was, I still am but I don't really present as such nowadays all that overtly. You can still tell if you 'know'. As such, many of my friends, male and female are/were gnc.

I personally think that a lot if this is also because some people undoubtedly immerse themselves in a subculture for shock value, to rebel against strict middle class social norm expectations/conventions, because they feel 'at home', and because its fun.

High street fashions and 'fitting in' don't appeal to everyone and there isn't, or shouldn't be, one acceptable way of being, looking, presenting or living.

I just don't think that wearing make up and dresses make someone a woman any more than beer and bass guitars make me a man.

I think a lot of young people today are into Cosplay, Lolita and Anime - many of the cultures are from SE Asia. I've also heard of straightedge and a few others.

Even in the 1920s they were subverting gender. Think of the flappers and the Bright Young Things.

Cosplay, Lolita and Anime

Three things with direct paedophile connections. It's troubling.