Women always held to much higher standard than men

[Swearymum83]

My partner works with a lot of other men and sometimes I get so jealous of the fact that they're allowed to just have a chat/tease each other/ have a laugh/shit talk without being burned at the stake for it.

Women, it seems, have to speak in whispers if ever they're to say something that isn't 100% kind and pc. Why are women held to a much higher standard especially by other women do you think and do you ever get tired of it?

You need a couple of days in my workplace and you’ll see the trash talk from the women and understand that its not necessarily the case that women can’t do this.

Actually, I am not sure Ive ever worked anywhere where the women can’t playfully tease each other and say what they want.

Perhaps its the women in your place of work, rather than society as a whole. M

But in answer to your question its always the patriarchy.

I'm a stay at home mum and uni student so I don't get much social interaction. I crave it so bad, just normal chats you have with friends about anything and everything but unfortunately in my world that isn't possible. I'm glad you are able to enjoy yourself at work! Must make the time go faster :-)

I'm not sure whether it's socialisation or a more innate aspect of many men's nature (maybe both), but I've always observed men to bond through 'banter' and taking the piss out of each other. On the other hand, in most of my workplaces it's the women who seem most likely to make snide comments and generally character assassinate each other. This may be why people tend to assume that men are more likely to not be serious when they make particular comments.

I am of course generalising and I've observed many exceptions to the rule, but by and large men seem to be much more likely to take the piss out of each other and receive it back without offence. For example, most overweight women would get offended at being called a "fat knacker" by a slim colleague IME but many blokes would laugh it off.

Women would be more offended by being called fat than men because for a woman being fat is a moral and personal failing, and one of the the worst things you can be.

Men are simply not under the same pressure when it comes to looks. Not even close.

The stakes are higher for women when it comes to judgement from others, which is an obvious reason why women are less likely to partake in man-style banter

What a load of bollocks, ScottChad. Men are just as capable of being bitchy, and backstab colleagues all the time.

When women are talking it is much more likely to be characterised as gossiping and trivial chit chat.

Interesting observation OP- on reflection I think it depends on the setting.
I have worked in both male dominated and female dominated environments and have had great banter in both. The difference IME has been that women tend to 'hold back ' on the teasing type of chat until they know the person well enough to know that it won't upset them, whereas men often dive right in.
There seems more of an element of protecting 'feelings' within groups of women- if there's genuine friendship, anyway.

If there's any underlying 'dislike' then the 'bitching' and back stabbing can happen with both sexes.

There's a big difference in different types of jobs too -my previous job was very emotionally demanding so staff developed strong bonds quite quickly and I guess the nature of the job attracts fairly empathic people anyway, both male and female. There was a lot of good natured teasing but nobody got upset as it never went too far and we all got on well. I really enjoyed the balance of male and female perspectives.

OP I know what you mean and I agree with PotatoandLeeek

At work I banter with the men and women (well there are only a couple) but with the women we are careful to be supportive about each others’ feelings and we would NEVER criticise each other’s looks not even as a joke.

It’s not surprising when women have been brought up to believe that their looks are so integral to their self-worth. It’s a no-go area.

And BS to boys being simpler and less “bitchy”. At our work they fall out with each other, have complex relationships filled with resentment, jealousy, hurt and also genuine affection for each other. Like human beings really.

It’s just when women do this they are considered emotional and catty.

I worked in anaesthesia in the NHS, so a potentially stressful operating theatre environment all day. We all teased, took the piss, made off colour jokes etc on a regular basis, both men and women - it was a good way of bonding and reducing stress. You just have to be careful, if teasing someone of lower rank, that they know you’re a) joking and
b) happy for them to tease you back, and that they won’t be in trouble for it. Otherwise it’s bullying.
I always aimed for a happy workplace, and my female colleagues and I shared a lot of banter, with no involvement of HR!

On the other hand, in most of my workplaces it's the women who seem most likely to make snide comments and generally character assassinate each other.
I always used to think that, and always preferred workplaces with more men than women as a result. I've since discovered it isn't true, and men gossip, bitch and backstab just as much as women do. I've realised that what I actually dislike is the kind of office environment that permits some women to be like that, and find offices in general to be very wasteful, boring and unproductive. Especially offices built around office-y staff doing office-y things, they tend to work towards keeping themselves in work rather than doing much of anything. Obviously some offices have a purpose, hence the staff have a purpose and are less likely to waste the day bitching and creating some complicated hierarchical etiquette nobody outside the office cares about or understands. (Desk placement/seating plans being a good example!)
I think women in "delicate" office jobs might be held to a higher standard of behaviour (enforced "niceness") than women doing other work, and my hypothesis is that the huge difference between office work and other work is noted in women's behaviour whereas men try their damnedest to play-act as factory workers when they are pen pushers because they don't want to feel emasculated by their sedentary job. Regardless of the salary level, every man I've ever known in a sedentary job is slightly jealous of the electrician who comes to rewire their office or the fireman who checks the building when the alarms go off. Just my guess, but I think male banter is more noticeable in an office environment because in other environments the banter is shared.

I haven't noticed women being held to a higher standard in that area but definitely others. Men I work with complain and back stab as much as, if not more than, the women I've worked with, but it's only women who have the stereotype of behaving this way. Because no one pays much attention to men acting like that.

I was recently so irritated chatting with an acquaintance who was telling me how manipulative and catty women are at work. When I kept pointing out that men act viciously at work, too, she kept saying things like,"But men never got to me. I just see them as little boys when they act up" as if her personal feelings towards men made their behavior less awful.

I'm a SAHM too, in the past I've worked in varying industries. I found the jobs with a higher number of males easier. Maybe that's because as a child/teen I had a lot more male friends. I agree in office type environments men can be just as gossipy as women.

In my experience it's a bit different in trade related industries (to clarify I haven't been on the tools myself and I'd imagine women that do have a lot more to deal with than gossip) some of the guys can be sexist but I've never been one to take shit. I've stood my ground and put people in their place, often to the cheers of the other guys.

SwearyMum, I feel you I do. It can be incredibly isolating being at home. I don't know what ages your child/children are, mine are now teens I do volunteer work now to feel "useful". Over the years I've been pretty discerning over which mothers to befriend. Don't get me wrong I'm friendly to them all but I left high school behind long ago I've not got the energy to bother with the petty "mean girls" who build themselves up by belittling others. Playgroup, Preschool, K-6, extracurricular activities, you'll encounter cliques in all these activities. Give it time, you can already see the ones not worth your time, the good ones you'll treasure.

In every workplace I've ever been in, there has been just as much sniping and unpleasantness amongst the men as amongst the women. The difference is that when women do it, it fits in with stereotypes about how we're meant to be and is called "bitching". When men do it, it's just "banter". The idea that men are somehow nicer and easier-going than women is just sexist BS and yes, a nice example of the higher standards of behaviour women are held to.

I’d also make the point that men can be damaged by ‘banter’ too and the notion they are just meant to ‘suck it up’. It doesn’t surprise me at all that construction workers have high suicide risk. They work in jobs that are often incredibly insecure and where if you are off I’ll you just don’t get paid. But also in very ‘masculine’ cultures - where you have the piss taken out of you and any show of feelings is seen to a sign you are ‘effeminate’. Yet, we frequently see male dominated work places being held up as the better model. We do similar with childhood friendships. Boys just ‘fight it out’, and are more ‘straightforward’. When actually I’ve seen times my son has felt harried by his playground experiences and definitely affected.

Sorry - my autocorrect was insistent ill was I’ll

It doesn’t surprise me at all that construction workers have high suicide risk. They work in jobs that are often incredibly insecure and where if you are off ill you just don’t get paid.
That's a good point. My point was that in jobs where employees are physically busy, even if it's just walking around instead of sitting at a desk, there's less time for the "mean girls" stuff.
I stand by my assertion that men are as gossipy and bitchy as women are.

What a load of bollocks, ScottChad. Men are just as capable of being bitchy, and backstab colleagues all the time

I'm inclined to apply "load of bollocks" to all the sweepong generalisations on this thread. Lord knows where you all work. My work experience is some people are nice and friendly and helpful and chatty ; others aren't.

There's a big difference in how people relate to their colleagues in different types of jobs. Perhaps jobs with a higher sense of satisfaction produce happier workers who get along better. People tend to take their gripes out on those around them -this can often manifest in different ways in men and women, due to social conditioning.

Thanks for all of your thoughtful replies :-)

I know men can be really bitchy too, partner is always telling me about some of the oguys trying to climb the ladder by stepping on the shoulders of others.. some of them sound ruthless! I guess I meant more that men are allowed to discuss things that might be considered 'taboo' without being called 'bitchy', 'terf' (lol) etc. I just think women limit their conversations if they think it may offend others, even if that wasn't the intention, which can put a real damper on potentially interesting conversations.

I agree about the comment regarding office work too.. I found it so menial! And eventually most of the council divisions were shut down because they actually were a waste of time and money. Unfortunate for those who needed the work though but my god it was boring.

I did state that I was generalising (and knew it would probs annoy some) but it's genuinely been my experience. I remember the thread on here about why the majority of women vote in preference of having a male boss and there were many posters saying they'd been bullied primarily by women at work.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3080265-Women-prefer-working-for-male-bosses