"But toilets in France are unisex"

[JellySlice]

As people have been saying to me, "and I don't feel any different in them than I do in the Ladies' loos."

How to reply?

(Is it even a thing? I have never to my knowledge or recollection used unisex public loos abroad. All communal loos were separated by sex, often with a fearsome female guardian at the joint entrance, ensuring that people went into the correct section.)

If you had kicked his head, would a court have considered it a reasonable use of force?

I live in Paris. The only toilets I've seen that could be called unisex are the ones which are a single cubicle for the whole place (small bars, tabacs, that kind of place).
I've also pretty much never been harassed, catcalled, wanked in front of, in the nine years we've lived here. Perhaps I am too old, or fierce looking or something.

I completely agree that you can grant consent for yourself and not for others, and that just because some people aren't bothered, that doesn't mean that everyone else should feel the same way.

However, stating that you choose to completely disregard the fact that some people are not bothered (or less bothered), weakens your stance as it sounds like you are not prepared to listen to any other POV. You don't have to agree, but if you just ignore anything that doesn't fit with your stance you can't have a sensible discussion.

FWIW I personally am not terribly worried about mixed spaces. I've used them and I'm ok with them. However I completely accept that I am in the minority, and that for some people the idea is somewhere between distasteful and downright terrifying. I respect that, and empathise with them and for this reason I would argue against such shared spaces.

However, stating that you choose to completely disregard the fact that some people are not bothered (or less bothered), weakens your stance as it sounds like you are not prepared to listen to any other POV.

That's a bit weird.

'Not being bothered' isn't really a position is it? Is a way of ducking out of the discussion because you couldn't really care either way.

If you are 'not bothered' but at the same time think your not botheredness is actually really adding something and needs to be heard. Then you are bothered and need to work out what your opinion is, then voice it.

If you had kicked his head, would a court have considered it a reasonable use of force?

I have no idea. I didn’t;t kick him because I was barefoot, and because lifting my leg would’ve exposed more of what he was presumably aiming to see.

What I did do was shout at the top of my voice, can’t remember what it was, but something like ‘get the fuck away from me you creepy fucking pervert’. He was chased out of the leisure centre by staff and police were called, but he wasn’t apprehended.

Of course, these days, men merely slide camera phones under doors or install spy cams when the cubicle is vacant, making their voyeurism easier to get away with. Especially in unisex facilities.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

This older survey found that French women were less likely to be uncomfortable with mixed sex facilities than British women, but 5 years has seen a lot of changes in affordability/availability of hidden camera equipment so a more up to date survey would be welcome:

today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2013/09/13/unisex-toilets-british-women-most-reluctant-share-

I live in France and agree that the only unisex toilets I’ve ever seen are of the single cubicle type. We technically have unisex toilets at work, but they’re individual rooms. I’ve also never had to walk past urinals.

I do also agree that facilities have improved a lot, when I lived here when I was a child, they were a lot worse, so it would be interesting to know if attitudes here reflect that. For example, people talking about squat loos - the only ones I have seen recently were on the motorway. Not at service stations, but at the little areas where you can stop off for a break, no shops or petrol, just a little loo block. Even most of those now have proper toile

Oops, posted by mistake.

.... even most of those have proper toilets now, although obviously still no loo seats. So although you still have to squat you’re less likely to piss on your shoes...

It’s just whataboutery. And even if it were true, there’s no reason to introduce it to the UK. But then, it matches a regressive agenda perfectly...

Unisex toilets are not rare in France, though not the norm. You walk past the boys and men using the urinals to get to the cubicles, usually with a half height privacy wall. It's never bothered me.

I don't want to see random cock when I go to the toilet, and I want teenage girls to have to do so even less. I wonder how many women in France are really OK with that and how many just don't feel like they have a choice.

And agreed with others, I found the level of sexual harassment in France remarkable and infuriating, so "well the French do it" is a pretty shit argument for why the Brits should too.

Am apparently a gorgon!

To be fair, I was last in France as a teenager, which is the age at which harassment tends to be at its worse. Had many fantasies about turning into the Feminist Avenger and kicking men in the bollocks with steel toed boots on.

I haven’t come across unisex toilets in France unless you mean tiny single toilet toilets in which case that isn’t really a unisex toileting facility in the same way that my bathroom isn’t unisex.

Yy to what angryattackkittebs said. French men take shocking liberties.

The toilets in my hotel in France were semi-unisex. A unisex door from the reception area into a shared space for hand washing and mirrors then separate doors off the shared space for men and women. But I think it was an unusual solution as even the French guests were a bit surprised.

What to say? That French culture and society is still much more misogynistic and sexist than British (I'm French-English)

At CDG airport i only saw single sex - don’t know about the rest of the country in general
Ditto at both Lyon and Marseille

In the mountains, they have those dreadful unisex squat things. Same in Italy. I developed an elephant sized bladder of steel.