So on what legal grounds does a man/transwoman have the right to enter women-only spaces?

[ThePrincipal]

And on what legal grounds can women change them?

Seems like trans don’t have the right to (legally) but people act as if they do?

Please break it down for me.

Challenge not change

Sorry posted on wrong board. MN please move to the feminist chat board.

Post-op transgender people have the legal right to use their 'identifying as' spaces. Don't they? Or am I wrong?

Ok. So transsexual people. I get that.

But that’s a different thing to transgender people.

There is no law covering this.

So there is no law preventing any man (trans or non-trans) from entering. Customary usage may mean that they will be asked to leave. But that is not because it is illegal.

Take public toilets or changing rooms as example.

If anyone who is woman or claims to be a woman can access women’s toilets, then basically there is only men’s toilets and unisex toilets, you can say that you are denying access to services to (natal) women and that’s sex decrimination according to the equality act 2010.

Can you not extend the same argument to girl guides, prisons, single sex schools?!

And businesses that provide changing rooms.

It's up to the person or organisation providing the facility.

If a company allows male people into an open plan changing room, it's up to them. I would argue that if they then call this a woman or female changing room, they are deceiving their customers.

Ironically enough the GRA (2004) specifies a trans woman must live as a woman for two years before being given a gender recognition certificate. This means using women-only spaces prior to any hormones or surgery.
So not only is there no legal basis to challenge trans women in female spaces, the law actually specifies they should be there.
The mind boggles huh?

It makes no sense and is contradictory.

I think it needs clarifying tbh

This means using women-only spaces prior to any hormones or surgery.

Are you sure that this is true? I've only been told this by transpeople online, I haven't seen anything about the process of diagnosis that states this.

I have seen that they are expected to inform their family and employers, and present as a women, but not to use women's spaces.

Yes it is true, trans women have to satisfy a gender recognition panel that they have been living as a woman for two years which means presenting as female in every aspect of life including female toilets, changing rooms etc.

A provider can legally stipulate that a provision is for natal females only (excluding transwomen even if they have a GRC) so long as they can justify that the single sex provision is a reasonable solution to a legitimate problem. So, a women's refuge can be for natal women only because the natal women it provides for need time away from natal males to aid their recovery. Being around natal males may trigger PTSD reactions etc.
Many organisations are not fully informed about this, TRAs have cornered the market in providing organisations with information about 'trans rights'.
As soon as organisations are made properly aware of their duties, debate will move in to what is reasonable and proportionate!

I've seen the existence of male cleaners used as a gotcha! argument regarding males entering women's toilets.

Here's what happens in that everyday scenario:

• knock knock
• Anyone iiiin?
• Yeah
• Ok love (waits outside)

Yes, exactly what MsBeaujangles said. There are many circumstances where it is lawful to trans transgender women different to natal women, for example certain job roles and sporting events. This is covered in the Equality Act (which is not up for review).

You may find this link useful

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#lawful

Yes it is true, trans women have to satisfy a gender recognition panel that they have been living as a woman for two years which means presenting as female in every aspect of life including female toilets, changing rooms etc.

What evidence do they use?

I don’t suppose there is any law stopping men using the ladies. Just a rigorously enforced social norm. Trans women have been doing it discretely for ages and I personally don’t have a problem with that. However if someone is acting in a way that is concerning or an obvious man comes in, the women using the facility or the management or whoever can ask them to leave.

I worry about self ID turning this on its head if it’s about a piece of paper certifying you as female rather than how you present then people either won’t be able to challenge men or someone acting inappropriately or will be too scared to for fear of committing a hate crime.

Yes it is true, trans women have to satisfy a gender recognition panel that they have been living as a woman for two years which means presenting as female in every aspect of life including female toilets, changing rooms etc.

No, it means sending in 2 years worth of documents in your new name and gender - passport, driving licence, payslips, utility bills etc.

The application guidance suggests 5 or 6 different documents to be sent in the first instance.

I've asked before the big question is whether women feel comfortable challenging said man, being certain he is a man. Most say no they wouldn't challenge him so they effectively are free to come and go.

On of the problems with the EA exceptions is that EHRC added 'case-by-case' to the statutory code under pressure from trans lobbying orgs (see post consultation report ).

You can have a policy to provide women only services and exclude TW as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim, however EHRC say you can only apply that policy on a case by case basis. This isn't in the EA itself, EHRC added it. They say you have to justify excluding this particular TW, as opposed to TW as a group. This is a recipe for nasty litigation which is one reason why lots of women's orgs are too scared to try using the exceptions.

There's a difference between public services and spaces & private businesses.

This is why the issue raised by Anne Sinnott about Cambridge City Council's modification of the Equality Act by Sarah Brown and Lion's Yard loos are significant.

Fair Play for Women have a lot of good info on the Equality Act, GRA and how they interact - list of articles here - the two 'Transgender rights: how did we get here?' articles are particularly good.

Nobody's entirely sure how it all works in practice though because there is a lack of case law in this area. Even highly qualified legal experts disagree.

Wtf 2 years worth of documents in new name -bills, bank statements etc., that’s just admin, no more difficult than what you have to do when you more house.

So no requirement for doctor s diagnosis or medical procedures?

Why is it that Organizations (businesses or charities) seem to side with the trans ideology when they are challenged (e.g. girl guides, women sports). Is it the cultural/ political climate we are in rather than any legal legs to stand on.

As far as I know, you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Which involves a doctor(s). But the living as the woman part appears to be just paperwork.