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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Toby Young - Spectator

46 replies

Pearpair4 · 25/10/2018 09:26

De-lurked (& NC'd) to draw this to your attention.

He's confused about sex and gender isn't he?

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/science-is-on-the-side-of-the-trans-activists/

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 25/10/2018 11:14

I think it may well be true that in order to succeed in a male dominated society, many women have felt the need to more forcefully express those characteristics deemed necessary to succeed in that male world: be more assertive, more self centred etc When that is the dominant culture then you need to conform to that to be accepted to some extent.

But as women have progressed and entered into many previously male dominated fields and occupations, there has also, over time, come to be a cultural shift, which has seen the development of different work & management styles and practices - which maybe reflect more the traditional' feminine culture of inclusivity, negotiation, compassion etc.

When people are free to be themselves in their entirety without the need to conform to gender stereotyping, then our culture and work practices become more rounded and healthier.

BiologyIsReal · 25/10/2018 11:19

I am no fan of Toby's. However, given that James wanted someone to write a contra argument to his I am wondering whether Toby has done it as a devil's advocate piece. In other words, his natural instinct as a right winger is to agree with James, but he will have a crack at putting the other side. Maybe, because he was unable to believe it, he has constructed an "argument" that he knows doesn't hold water but couldn't manage to do any better because he doesn't actually agree with what he has written.

Am I mad, or could I be on to something?

TimeLady · 25/10/2018 11:23

Ha ha. The woke bros being obliged to side with Toby Young. What a dilemma or them.....Grin

(Yep, I reckon TY is just shit-stirring too)

Justhadathought · 25/10/2018 11:24

Toby Young is displaying the usual TRA conflation and confusion between sex and gender. And as 'Biology is Real' suggests, maybe he is just trying to cobble together an counter argument, trying to cram in as many TRA arguments as possible. As he says at the need, he "hasn't yet mind up his mind."

ChiaraRimini · 25/10/2018 11:26

I thought that too Biology.

yetanotherusernameAgain · 25/10/2018 11:30

It comes across as someone who doesn't know much about the subject just wondering out loud. Although in his case he's doing so in an article in a national magazine.

Does anyone know which recent report he's referring to? He doesn't even name it.

kesstrel · 25/10/2018 11:36

Rubisco Do you remember who did the study you mention? Interested to read it.

yetanotherusernameAgain · 25/10/2018 11:47

Toby Young has kids doesn't he? Presumably he knows how they were created, the whole man/woman thing? Perhaps not. Maybe the stork brought them, or they were found under a gooseberry bush.

rubisco · 25/10/2018 11:54

kesstrel Paper here. See figure 2.

Nofedora · 25/10/2018 11:58

Phew. Not sure I could be on the same side Toby Jug

Juells · 25/10/2018 11:58

Didn't Toby Young disguise himself as a lesbian and go to a gay bar to pick up women? Off to google...

Aaaaahhhhhh....

www.nosacredcows.co.uk/golden_oldies/360/i_was_a_lesbian_for_a_night.html

Most men fantasize about spying on lesbians; I want to be one.

placemats · 25/10/2018 12:11

Toby Young and his wonderful Free School project which has gone a wee bit wrong.

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-toby-young-resigns-director-free-school-trust-he-founded

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/22/toby-young-clings-on-to-taxpayer-funded-new-schools-network-role

This is a person who is happy to leap frog over those parents and children who need inclusive education.

His views on women and eugenics is widely reported and it certainly makes him not fit for purpose.

imgur.com/hw3Mady

www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jan/03/toby-young-quotes-on-breasts-eugenics-and-working-class-people

OldCrone · 25/10/2018 12:13

This is an article about some research similar to that in rubisco 's link.

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

In this study, the percentage of girls who did excel in science or math was still larger than the number of women who were graduating with stem degrees. That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

merrymouse · 25/10/2018 12:57

If only everyone had known Emily Davison was going to throw her self in front of that horse they could have allowed her to vote because she clearly can’t have been a woman.

theOtherPamAyres · 25/10/2018 13:06

Toby answered a call from James Kirkup for articles that answered his own own analysis of gender beliefs and their consequences.

I read the article as a tongue in cheek piece - dashed off with the help of google and relying on research on 'feminine' and 'masculine' traits and leanings. It wasn't very deep or meaningful and, of course, there are ruddy great big holes in his logic.

But never mind, that. At least it's a start. Hopefully, more writers and journalists will have the courage to step up to the plate and give us articles that are as well-researched, factual and insightful as James Kirkup's.

It's a tall order, but at least Toby Young had a go.

arranfan · 25/10/2018 13:11

As a general pointer to early C20 thinking about male/female, the existence of what they then styled as Middlesex, feminised males, masculinised females, I wholeheartedly recommend the Barbican exhibition, Modern Couples

It's genuinely eye-opening that similar ideas are being given another airing 100 years later when you'd think we'd left such intellectual embarrassments behind. Those ideas were popular back when intellectuals considered eugenics to be a good idea and the potential saviour of civilisation...

www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2018/event/modern-couples-art-intimacy-and-the-avant-garde

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 25/10/2018 13:39

For instance, if you plot statistical distributions for men and women with respect to where they fall on the systematising-empathising axis, there will be considerable overlap between the two.

Oh, the hilarious irony that he picked this to make his point. Empathising is the one "female" trait that I have not seen a single transactivist transwomen display.

vicviking · 25/10/2018 13:44

Old crone - that's exactly what I was getting at. Women are just as good at these subjects but something pushes them away. And in liberal societies there are many reasonably well paid careers open to bright women so they move towards those.

horizonglimmer · 25/10/2018 13:52

Well I think he is confused about the concerns about self - ID.
Concern 1. Safeguarding. The research he quotes would have to show that a man, simply by declaring he is a woman, becomes less of a risk to women. There is no research showing this. Instead we know that sexually predatory men are using self ID to abuse women.
Concern 2. Women's sports. The research would have to show that men, simply by identifying as women, no longer have a competitive advantage due to their sex. Clearly the research doesn't show that and men who identify as women continue to have the advantages of a male physique.
3 Concern 3, reserved spaces for women (women only short lists/ awards etc). The research would need to show that men who identify as women have faced the same barriers that women have in relevant field. And they haven't.

The stuff he is talking about is not relevant to the concerns caused by self ID.

EatPeanuts · 25/10/2018 14:10

Ah, Toby Young! He also thinks eugenics should be rehabilitated, apparently, so this doesn't come as a surprise ...

He also doesn't seem to like women very much (Office for Students debacle), at least in the sense of 'human beings not just sex objects'.

merrymouse · 25/10/2018 14:11

Whether or not you believe in ladybrain, the more it’s argued that there are objective differences between men and women, the less there is a case for self ID.

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