Biological sex spectrum research

[WomanAndProud]

I'm looking for peer-reviewed research into this. I'm not a biologist, but have access to almost any research. What am I looking for and who am I looking for?

And can anybody unequivocally tell me that this spectrum isn't about inter-sex people "bridging" the two official biological sexes?

I know there are people reading these boards who think we're all a bunch of backward bigots, but I'm here, I'm asking for the research that I'm seeing increasingly alluded to, but not ever directly cited. Please give it to me.

I'm seeing things about extra chromosomes etc. What is all this based on? How could someone have full male genitals but be biologically female due to chromosomes? School biology told me that's impossible.

What is the XO chromosome combination?

If you're an actual biologist (degree level or higher - PhD into biological sex would be perfect.. ) why is this untrue or why is it scientifically proven?

My understanding of biological sex is limited (or "limited") to xy/penis = male sex, xx/vulva/vagina = female sex. Why is this wrong? I'm ONLY talking about biology. Explanation of terms for a general audience would be great!

And if no peer-reviewed research or explanations turn up, I'll assume that means there aren't any.

I'm in and out of mumsnet, so I may not respond immediately, but I will be back.

Thanks in advance!

Thank you so much everybody who has taken the time to reply.

You're right (whoever said it) that there's more than an air of entitlement about the way I phrased my post. It wasn't intended, but it's there.

To posters saying I can look it up myself, you're sort of right, only I am in a position where it's hard for me to actually know where to start and what to believe.

What got me confused was the response from a biologist (who is one, she's my friend's daughter) to the article I'll post below saying it's true, sex is a spectrum and there are two peaks in this spectrum that have cross-culturally been accepted as man and women. I have asked for peer-reviewed research for this, but it's yet to come (very different time zones too).

This is the article. medium.com/@QSE/the-xx-xy-lie-our-social-construction-of-a-sex-and-gender-binary-4eed1e60e615?fbclid=IwAR2wKKQzlboT8FLmm0ECCQPba2jnZcs7J9oZomDLn1f8Q3KpcmMrj7vTlW0

I wasn't impressed by it but then there were comments under the post by a few people more knowledgeable than me along the same lines as the biologist. I've never actually gone head to head with anybody on this point so I thought I'd be more likely to find the specific information here. I was wondering if there was even one study, peer-reviewed that said what's being claimed. I doubted it but it's not my field.

Sorry got interrupted!

I absolutely do not think that intersex is "between" make and female. I can't remember wording of my post but if the impression was that I think that I apologise, I am aware it's offensive. I was merely trying to restate what has been coming up in these discussions.

And yes, my question isn't focussed, I realise that's not so helpful! I guess it's because I was wanting to know a few things.

I'm going to take the time to read and follow links. Thank you.

Ok, basic point and I'm sure this is a grandmother-and-eggs situation but that link title refers to 'sex and gender binary' and you to 'man and woman'.

You can certainly have a sex binary, plus some anomalies, usually not or less fertile (as we do) AND a gender spectrum. Given that gender is all about personalities, ideas, behaviours, politics and how these relate to social norms.

So, you can say that there is binary male and female but that 'man and woman' represent gender identities, usually conflated with sex, and are 'peaks on a gender spectrum'.

People here will debate you on those definitions of man and woman and whether they do or ought to refer to sex or gender.

But, it is not inconsistent with the biological reality of binary sexes, to say that gender is a spectrum and what we understand as man and women are social constructs.

Jesus that article.

'Imagine a thought experiment: Due to an unfortunate accident, you were crushed above your hips by a massive object. In order to save you, the surgeon was required to remove your genitals completely. Do you stop being a man or a woman, in this scenario, just because your genitals are now gone? Of course not, because gender, the inner sense of who you are, exists independent of your genitals.'

You've spent your life growing up as an adult human male or female and then you're a disabled adult human male or female.

Any article that includes the words transphobes and bigots is not an article written by a scientist.

Debbie Hayton is a science teacher. This is basic level entry biology.

debbiehayton.wordpress.com/

Any further is intersex and personality.

Afaik it is not possible for someone who is XX karyotype to have male genitalia
There might be cases of people with male genitalia having some cells that are XX but that would be due to mosaicism and means nothing as their phenotype (the way the genes are expressed) would be male.
There are some women who have XY genotype. This is because of a developmental condition that means their androgen receptors don't work properly. Testosterone is an androgen. That means the testosterone produced by the fetus can't act on the development so the baby looks female (but will have internal testes instead of ovaries).

So, you can say that there is binary male and female but that 'man and woman' represent gender identities.

Really? To do that, you would have to be able to define 'man' and 'woman' in a noncircular, objectifyable way without any reference to biology. Can you do that?

Afaik it is not possible for someone who is XX karyotype to have male genitalia

There are rate cases where the SRY gene (which determines sex) is found on one of two X-chromosomes, resulting in male genitalia (not sure if fertile, because Y has other genes important for sex development, too). So, I believe, to be superprecise you would have to talk about presence or absence of the SRY gene in your chromosome set as determinant of sex.

I'm not going to try! I was just making the point that OP's interlocutor might be making such a claim but that this would not invalidate or even conflict with the binary nature of the sexes.

That medium article should be shared everywhere as an example of the damaging influence that trans ideologies can have if people go along with them.

There was a thread recently on the spectrum thing that demonstrated how the data is presented created a different graph image. Someone re did a tea spectrum graph to show a clear binary bar chart. I can't find the thread but hoping someone will remember and link.

The whole “gender is a spectrum” thing is misleading and nothing to do with sex or genitalia.

It is based on attributing personality traits to biological sex. Whether or not you like boy bands is not directly linked to your genotype or sex organs.

You may as well say “people are a spectrum”. Or dog/cat/rabbit gender is a spectrum.

You don’t see many dogs insisting on a pink collar because they were born in the wrong body.

It's a truly terrible article. The trouble is that there are more than enough people so ignorant of biology that they'll assume it's true.

This is partly a result of people growing up in cities where they have no experience of reproduction in other species. Anyone who knows about animals would spot that this article is bollocks. Horses and cattle don't have gender identities. But they do have sexes.

One way to avoid confusing gender and sex is to imagine you are talking about a primate other than humans.

If what you are saying turns into complete bollocks you are probably talking about gender.

I’ve never seen anyone argue that chimps or gorillas have a ‘sex spectrum’.

The two biggest difficulties in explaining sex to other people are ignorance of biology and ignorance of statistics.

It’s remarkable how few people understand both.

I’m not an expert in either but at least I have some grasp.

This is an interesting paper which explores links between the biological development of the brain and gender. It investigates research showing that our biological sex extends into the brain and how the brain expresses gender. I guess it makes a lot of sense that the brain is a human organ which grows out of a biological process in the womb. and can be affected by the conditions in the womb at different times during development. Perhaps this start to shed light on why some peoples gender is in fact different from their external genitalia? www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027

Newsletter article =/= scientific paper

Even if it were true that there are sexed differences in behaviour we are still talking about statistical differences.

Say, for the purpose of argument there is a statistical difference in how men and women can read emotion (women being more adept) and special awareness (men being better able to read maps) or whatever.

That just means that the mean ability is different. You’ll still find men with high cognitive empathy and world class female orienteers. The fact that a particular man may be brilliant at reading minds but couldn’t find his arse with a torch wouldn’t make him a woman, it just means his empathy and cognitive awareness are more typical of a woman. An autistic woman with perfect special awareness isn’t male, it’s just that she possesses traits we’d typically associate with men.

Normal distribution curves for supposedly ‘gendered’ cognitive traits overlap, they’re not like the two mutually exclusive groups we’d sort people into when we talk about gamete production or the two distant humps we’d see in measures of free testosterone.

From a very quick read of the article, I noticed that almost every aspect of neuroanatomy mentioned has also been potentially linked to autism. What a weird coincidence...

Also how are we defining "gendered traits"? If they exist in both sexes, then they are obviously not sex-linked, are they.

Another question - how are they defining "cis" and "trans"? Given neither is empirically measurable, they must be relying on self reporting. Are people who self-report as "cis" likely to accurately represent the non-dysphoric population?

Meant spatial awareness, not special awareness. Twice.

Categorising men and women by brain differences, even if they exist, is like categorising people into men and women by shoe size. There may be differences between groups in the average size, but for any one person you cannot be sure.
It is heavily disputed as to whether differences exist at all, or are down to sloppy methodology. Brain scans look 'sciencey' but are not reliable.