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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sky News

20 replies

Juells · 22/10/2018 19:47

Debbie Hayton on

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NoseringGirl · 22/10/2018 21:08

What was she saying? Completely missed it! Anyone else on?

HilltopTractor · 22/10/2018 21:11

I caught the end of it.

There was someone else on.

I don't know who it was, the newsreader struggled with names, he stated he lost his glasses.

Juells · 23/10/2018 07:05

I caught just the end of the Stonewall representative - evidently they both refused to debate, they preferred to have slots to say their pieces.

TBH I don't know what she said, my mind kept wandering. It may have been because I've been following the subject, but I think if I'd been a member of the public I'd have wondered what the fuss was about. DH said she accepted TW who'd had treatment into women's spaces. That's all I took away from it.

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R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 07:57

DH said she accepted TW who'd had treatment into women's spaces

What treatment though?

Is Debbie Hayton now the gatekeeper for women's spaces?

Juells · 23/10/2018 08:02

Don't take what I said as gospel! I really didn't focus properly. But I was left with the impression that the Stonewall rep was all "why can't we all just be nice?" and DH wasn't being tough enough about women's spaces.

I think what has to be emphasised over and over again is 'if TW say men are dangerous in public toilets, why are women expected to invite men into ours?'

As the DUP say...Not an inch.

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R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 08:40

Juells I didn't. Smile

I've followed Debbie Hayton's articles and interviews and the questions are in response to them generally.

HilltopTractor · 23/10/2018 08:44

Is Debbie Hayton now the gatekeeper for women's spaces?

We aren't being given a voice.Sad

Juells · 23/10/2018 08:52

Oh holy shit the penny has just dropped!

One of the reasons I wasn't listening closely to DH was that when she appeared I thought "anyone watching this will just think she's another TW because she doesn't look very female". It never fucking occurred to me that Sky would have the fucking bald-faced fucking cheek to actually have two TWs discussing women's right to keep men out of female spaces.

FFS I feel sick now.

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HilltopTractor · 23/10/2018 08:55

On big brother the year of the woman Shane was man splaining feminism to men.

Yes, get the males in to discuss women's rights erosion.

BelleHathor · 23/10/2018 09:13

Debbie talked about safeguarding, how allowing any man to self id as a woman would erode safeguarding for women and children. Debbie said she wanted reform but obtaining a Grc should still require medical gatekeeping and a period of reflection. Debbie clarified that she was not representing WPUK and had just been an invited as a speaker so she couldn't speak for WPUK. The stonewall rep did the usual obtaining a Grc is the hardest thing ever! How can you let a panel who doesn't know you decide whether you have a right to exist .... that's all I caughtSmile

rightreckoner · 23/10/2018 09:19

How does one complain to Sky about two male bodied people discussing women?

Juells · 23/10/2018 09:35

that's all I caught

Did you find it as difficult to focus on what was being said as I did? It was all waffly.

The interviewer pressed DH about the two years living as a woman requirement, there was some kind of vague reply about how DH didn't agree with that requirement, that what was needed was 'a period of reflection and time to think about it', it made no sense to me. I think that's why my attention kept wandering - I'd been expecting a woman to be giving the woman's POV and instead it was all about identity and who was more womanly and more entitled.

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Juells · 23/10/2018 09:35

I guess from Sky's POV they were just giving two different views on self-ID.

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R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 10:03

Debbie talked about safeguarding, how allowing any man to self id as a woman would erode safeguarding for women and children. Debbie said she wanted reform but obtaining a Grc should still require medical gatekeeping and a period of reflection

Debbie Hayton described on a previous thread that she doesn't have a GRC, could obtain one but doesn't feel she needs one.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times?pg=11

R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 10:09

This is the issue with the original GRA and subsequent interpretation of Equality Act 2010 re 'gender reassignment'.

Its why Paris Lees, Jane Fae, Helen Belcher (all of whom have said they don't have and don't want GRCs) are stressing that they have been using women's spaces without a problem.... for them.

theOtherPamAyres · 23/10/2018 10:09

Sky is right to throw some light on the debate within the trans population.

It's not all about women.

It's also about the fact that high profile trans lobbyists do not speak for every transwoman. There are to some fundamental disagreement over whether Transwomen are women. One side says that women's evidence-based fears are valid, the other side says 'it could never happen'.

It's powerful stuff, in my view. It shows that the concerns are not confined to radical feminists.

R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 10:11

Similar panel on Radio 4 earlier this week with Debbie Hayton, Paris Lees and someone who was a non-binary drag queen.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399306-debbie-hayton-on-world-at-1-radio-4-today

EchoGivesNarcissusTheFinger · 23/10/2018 10:13

I said this on last week's news night thread and I'll say it again here.

I am grateful to Debbie for putting herself out there. It must be at some considerable personal cost. However...

Whilst Debbie Hayton's writing on self ID leaves you in no doubt as to where she stands on the topic (i.e., with us), her radio (last week's Woman's Hour) and tv (Newsnight) appearance would leave the uninitiated very unclear as to where she stands on it all.

She says what we all agree with, she talks about women's safety and boundaries, but she's not particularly forceful about it, and she is rather waffly. Those unfamiliar with her stance or the debate in general could possibly believe the she is in fact on the side of "trans' and whatever they want, including self ID, because why wouldn't she be? She is an obvious trans woman, plus slight, older, conservatively dressed, softly spoken and reasonable sounding. She epitomises the old school idea of a transsexual, the gentle, thoughtful person who wouldn't harm a fly and just wants to live a peaceful life in their chosen gender; she is concerned about the safety of natal women whilst at the same she's a walking talking example of "no threat to anyone, nothing to worry about here, move along". Those who don't know who we are really fearful of here - the Karen Whites et al - will be wondering why women are being so mean.

I think she's an amazing person, but I do wonder whether she is giving out such mixed messages (not deliberately, just in her being and because she's so mild mannered, and academic), that she may be doing more harm than good. I feel horrible typing this, but that's how I feel every time I see /hear her media bits (I haven't seen today's Sky interview, just to be clear). Her side needs a clearer media voice - a Miranda Yardley or a Rose of Dawn.

I complained to the BBC last week after the Sophie Cook Newsnight interview that women were being excluded from speaking about their own issues. The BBC obviously does not see any conflict. Sky has been more gender critical. Maybe what they were trying to show is that not everyone under the trans umbrella agrees with this - and it is actually men like Debbie who have done the most to be "like a woman" who are critical of self ID, so we should not take the word of the clearly still male be-penised activists who dismiss women's concerns out of hand and tell us that this is all going to be fine.

EchoGivesNarcissusTheFinger · 23/10/2018 10:16

X post with PamAyres on the last bit of my post.

hellandhairnets · 23/10/2018 10:30

I agree with all you've said, Echo.

I don't think it's okay that safe spaces are being decided by male-bodied people and that discussions don't include natal females.

However, I think it's extremely important that people see that there is a legitimate conflict between trans people on this as well and that transsexuals are being pushed aside by what's going on. I like Debbie but I too would like to see some more forceful voices who make the position clearer. As you say, Miranda or Rose of Dawn.

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