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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Consultation closed! Well done everyone!!

129 replies

naivetyisthenewblack · 22/10/2018 13:12

So, that's it then. Well done everyone, for everything we've achieved in the last year.

My goodness my world has shifted!

At the beginning of 2017, I was a Labour voter, wasn't involved in any active campaigning, my feminism was an identity (no pun intended!) instead of an action. I only read the Guardian, never nasty Tory papers like the Daily Mail / Spectator / The Times. And I assumed most lefty men understood about male violence and supported feminism.

All that has changed.

I've met some fucking awesome women though, falling down this rabbit hole.

This is for all of you fucking awesome women. A five minute pause, at least for Gin and Cake - before we move on to the next phase

Thank you mumsnetters, for opening my eyes to what was actually going on.

OP posts:
Original poster
naivetyisthenewblack · 22/10/2018 14:17

HopeGarden yes, it'll have to get through Parliament.

Try to see your MP face to face - you don't need to write an awful lot in the email, the most important thing is to get an appointment. This is because, when you write, your reply may be from an aide, rather than your actual MP.

Seeing them face to face is much more valuable.

OP posts:
Original poster
naivetyisthenewblack · 22/10/2018 14:18

ChilliJamandAvocado they outsource it to a company called Delib.

www.delib.net/

I don't know how they'll process such large numbers though!

OP posts:
GulagsMyArse · 22/10/2018 14:20

naivetyisthenewblack

Exactly the same for me, lefty, Guardian, bleeding heart the whole shebang. Massive change in my life.

I had at least 12 others submit the consultation.

Identifying as totally knackered now!

RiverTam · 22/10/2018 14:20

I thought I would feel better after submitting my response but I still feel utterly enraged every day. And I now don't know if I could express my views on MN after being deleted the other day for clearly stating the dishonesty at the heart of this.

So I feel like just about the only place where I could speak has been taken away, because I refuse to accept, in any circumstance, a man as a woman. And too many people, even on this board, still do.

gendercritter · 22/10/2018 14:21

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to explain this consultation. I know some people have put in a huge amount of hours and that includes posters who've taken the trouble to post the same points again and again and again on here for the benefit of newbies.

Some feminists have been trying to raise some of these issues for years. And you've not been listened to and you've been scoffed at and insulted and threatened and you've still kept trying to communicate your points. And it's because of you that so many women are speaking up.

Most people are against self-id for very good reasons. I think we have a very long battle on our hands to win this fight but we will get there. We aren't going to back down.

Flowers and Gin to everyone who is feeling worn out

SeraphinaDombegh · 22/10/2018 14:25

Did mine at the last minute too. Enraged by the question about whether the government should accommodate "non-binary". Seriously? Fucking seriously? My response was, "Sex IS binary.
Non-binary is a nonsense that confuses physical sex with a person's personality. We are a sexually dimorphic species. There is no scientific evidence to suggest
otherwise. No matter how a person FEELS, they are either male or female. Let them express their gender identity in clothing, behaviour, speech and preference
to their heart's content - but they are still either male or female, and should be treated legally as such."

WHY DO WE EVEN NEED TO SAY THIS???

NoseringGirl · 22/10/2018 14:25

Thanks to everyone here, I was able to complete the consultation. I did it in my own not very eloquent words, but I'd never have had the awareness of what was going on if it wasn't for the posters here. I rarely comment on anything but I do read a lot and I'm taking it all in. So thank you 

SeraphinaDombegh · 22/10/2018 14:30

I think one of the next things that we should do is start a fund to enable individuals and small women's organisations to afford legal action to enforce their rights under the Equality Act. There's been too much blurring of the lines already. We need to empower women to draw a clear line. And large organisations that ignore our legal rights should be dragged over the coals for endangering our safety by not adequately risk-assessing their ridiculous knee-jerk woke decisions to open women's spaces to men in dresses (I'm looking at you, TopShop etc.).

PyeWackets · 22/10/2018 14:32

Well done lovelies.

I honestly think this is a fight we will be fighting all our lives, sad but true. At what personal cost I don't know. Men should be free to wear what they like, women can be as butch as anything, no one should need to appropriate another persons sex to do so. No child is born wrong, no child needs fixing.

Original poster
naivetyisthenewblack · 22/10/2018 14:50

I think one of the next things that we should do is start a fund to enable individuals and small women's organisations to afford legal action to enforce their rights under the Equality Act.

Yes, we know already that the TRAs are looking for good test cases (see the Still Here thread). We need to be on the ball with this.

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 22/10/2018 14:51

think one of the next things that we should do is start a fund to enable individuals and small women's organisations to afford legal action to enforce their rights under the Equality Act

This is so important - using the courts to establish the rights in case law. There doesn't seem to be much legal consensus on how the law currently stands, and the lack of case law leaves organisations open to being advised by groups with a certain agenda without a proper balance of rights - when in fact legal advice is just a guess on how a court would rule on this because courts have hardly ever ruled on this.

I really hope the thread 'is anyone judicially reviewing this stuff?' has produced some plans behind the scenes.

Manderleyagain · 22/10/2018 14:54

I also want to thank many posters on here who have patiently and calmly put forward their very sensible points over and over again. I think I started reading here regularly around Feb/March after being only a bit aware for a while.

2BorNot2Bvocal · 22/10/2018 15:28

Big thanks for all the guidance on here. 12 months ago I would have said I was a lazy feminist. Helping junior colleagues etc but not active outside my bubble. I have not been political beyond voting but this I have splattered over social media and know I persuaded a good few to reply.

Part of the way forward is teaching children that acceptance of people's differences is generally a good thing but remember no-one can actually change their biological sex, and there are only two sexes.

LangCleg · 22/10/2018 15:44

Enraged by the question about whether the government should accommodate "non-binary".

I said along the lines of "Possibly, but that would be after the Nobel award for the discovery of third and further gametes."

Dragon3 · 22/10/2018 16:04

HopeGarden, don't worry. Our task was to demonstrate that genderists are not the only stakeholders in this issue. And we have done that.

RiverTam · 22/10/2018 16:04

I gave that question both barrels - may have mention narcissism several times ...

TorchesTorches · 22/10/2018 16:08

Asking about what to do next... I am going to email my MP regularly on this now.

She quoted the suicide stats and some other stats to me and said we need to see how the other counties who already have self ID are getting on. I am going to email her all the examples i can find that shows who benefits from self id (eg, most recently rachel mckinnon, karen white etc) and conversely who didn't benefit (all the women who competed against RMck, all the women in K whites prison etc.) plus examples from self id countries as they arise. See which side she feels reflects her views and personal politics best...

KatVonGulag · 22/10/2018 16:12

Thank you to everyone for all the parts you played in this.
The crazies think we are Russian bots. The crazies we are funded by the American right. But this is a grassroots movement of women who wish for biological reality to be maintained.

We need to keep the pressure on all the organisations who have brought in self I.D regardless.

Anyone know if Fair Play for Women will continue? Surely Dr Nic has a day job. I wish we could fund staff and a continuing campaign.

Floisme · 22/10/2018 16:13

Another poster who was a lazy Guardian reading Labour voter only a year or so ago. Thank you, Vipers, it's been a humbling experience. And a special thank you to Perfectly wherever they are now - the 'I've got a cake to ice' poster who last Christmas made me realise it was time to pick a side.

I'm not sure what to make of the numbers doing the consultation. It's impressive and I'm sure the TRA lobby were planning to sneak the changes through unnoticed and will have been given the fright of their lives. But they can still leverage support, as displayed by the Stonewall willy waving in the Metro.

I don't think this will ever be over.

MIdgebabe · 22/10/2018 16:13

Perhaps you could use the times article the other week to correct /position the suicide stats ..a bit lower than anorexia I recall?

2BorNot2Bvocal · 22/10/2018 16:20

I said along the lines of "Possibly, but that would be after the Nobel award for the discovery of third and further gametes".

This absolutely wins the internet today Glitterball GrinGrin

JourneyWithMe · 22/10/2018 16:35

Huge thanks from me too for opening my eyes to this. I started with MN Feminism boards, moved onto Magdelen Berns, and was just horrified by what I discovered. Dh is on board, we've filled in the consultation, donated to Posie and her billboards and I have got the t-shirt! I have also 'come out' (carefully) as GC at work.

It feels like the groundswell of common sense began just days before the consultation closed but LOOK how far we've come. 56,000 responses.

The article that ended "This is not a fucking drill" really hit home. Thanks to the feminism board on MN it seems the message has begun to get across to those in power. Well done all. No doubt this is just the start.

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 22/10/2018 16:41

Thank you to everyone on this board for helping me to garner information and knowledge Star
Especially Datun and Red *
I really appreciate all the time you have taken to post answers to my many questions Flowers

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 22/10/2018 16:42

Red

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 22/10/2018 17:00

I don't think this will ever be over.

I am currently reading this book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds, which was written in 1841 (and which you can get for free on Kindle).
This phenomenon is exactly the same as those in the book and they all end eventually.
The down side is that while some crazes disappear as quickly as they arrived, others last for hundreds of years....
It will disappear eventually though, have no doubt. You can't fight reality for that long.