Are you really a feminist if...

[BiologyMatters]

You're happy to use the word T* to describe fellow women whose only crime is having a different opinion to you? (Don't want to get deleted so not using the word in full!)

I have a couple of very right on vocal feminists on my Facebook page who amongst the usual libfem stuff they post there are various trans supportive posts which refer to t*s. They know exactly what it means and that gender critical women find it offensive and they have said to me that's why they do it.

They're very proud of their self-identified status as feminists but can they really be feminists if they actively and deliberately use a word which is being used to demonise and attack other women?

There’s never going to be total agreement as to what defines a feminist so I would say yes, which isn’t to say I agree with it.

I agree with continually

It does mark your card (the one in my head ) when you use it, but your card is also marked for all sorts of words and phrases as well...in my head

Feminism is after all an identity.

I like the word.

I don't mind being called that because I find it accurate.

I don't want trans people excluded from everything but from feminist spaces yes. So I am happy for them to be excluded from safe spaces.

I am a proud t*

Ridiculous that I can't even type it because mumsnet are so fucking controlling over this issue

I would apply the same logic to that as I would to transwomen. They can call themselves what they want and I will be polite. But it doesn't mean I have to believe it.

They can call themselves what they want and I will be polite. But it doesn't mean I have to believe it.

That would be fine if there was only you and the other person in the world. The trouble comes when there are millions of other people in the debate and they start believing the other person's definitions. Then you are no longer what you thought you were. You thought woman = adult female; everyone else says no, it's pink sparkles.
Similarly they start to define feminism as something totally different. That's why we had first wave, second wave, etc femiinism.

I might start to identify as "woman version 1.0".

To clarify: I am polite to that person. But it doesn't stop me telling everyone else that woman = adult human female. Nor would I agree with that person, should they tell me they are a woman. It's never happened to me but I think my response would probably be a Paddington bear death stare, which is actually quite polite compared to what would be going on in my head

Yes. Not one of us lives a perfectly feminist life. I don't think these women don't care about women's liberation - I am quite sure they care very deeply and we'd all agree with each other on classic feminist issues like reproductive rights.

I think they are making a big mistake and I do think that using slurs to insult other feminists is categorically an unfeminist action. But feminists should be allowed to make mistakes in my opinion.

A lot of them say we're not feminists because we don't accept that TWAW.

I am a proud t
Ridiculous that I can't even type it because mumsnet are so fucking controlling over this issue

Of course you can say T[Edited by MNHQ]f on MN. Look: T[Edited by MNHQ]f, T[Edited by MNHQ]f, T[Edited by MNHQ]f.

What you can't do is call someone else a , T[Edited by MNHQ]f because it's often used as a term of abuse.

It's interesting isn't it? I have been harangued heartily on fb for trying to discuss the GRA in a GC way. One of the criticisms of me, whilst defending the feminist position which an article was trying to refute, was that I was using the word feminist 'as if I had a monopoly' on the word and that they were all feminists too (including a TIM).

This liberal feminist reading I don't really see as feminist but they genuinely do. They really think they are feminists. They also think Burlesque and sex work are empowering feminist acts but that's another story.

So whether it is a 'different kind' of feminism or not feminist is up for debate. Does it mean that they are identifying as feminist and should be respected for that?

My gut is that if you use misogynistic slurs then you're not a feminist but as someone said above I'm sure we all do some things that are un-feminist at times. I don't shave my body hair but I have done in the past and am aware that many feminists do. I think the difference for me on a lot of these things is whether the person knows that they are capitulating to the patriarchy (by wearing make up, shaving their legs etc), but do it anyway as they know they are culturally conditioned, or whether they see it as a feminist act because they identify as feminists.

Ridiculous that I can't even type it because mumsnet are so fucking controlling over this issue

As has just been said...i think

You can call yourself a terf and refer to the word...just not call anyone else a terf

Terf is not accurate anyway because GC feminists are not trying to exclude transmen. So I'm not one. I include ALL women when I talk about feminism.

Interestingly, don't mind calling myself a terf. Calling myself cis on the other fucking hand!

What I don't understand (and what marks out this whole discussion about 'exclusion' ridiculous) is that language exists to exclude and include in an effort to describe and define. Unless you're saying/writing 'anything everything infinity' over and over again.

Something can be identified by saying it is black or white (or grey etc). Saying that is has a colour (or whatever, I'm not sure exactly how to nail 'nonexclusionary' language in general) is not helpful in describing/defining it.

I say I'm a feminist, which includes me in one group and excludes me from an other. By using The Word they are excluding a group of people.

How do we describe things 'inclusively'?? It boggles the mind that such a useless concept has gained so much traction.

Everything anything infinity. Is that better?

(Oops, infinity excludes finiteness. My bad.)

They also think Burlesque and sex work are empowering feminist acts but that's another story.

Oh yes these ones too all come from the position that sex work is empowering and that most sex workers are very happy. They don't have too many answers about trafficking though.

I guess I see the difference between women using the word terf and shaving their legs for example is that women using the word about other women legitimises it and accelerates it's usage as an absolutely fine way to "other" gender critical women and opens the door for men to attack them verbally and physically. They may not be posting the sort of thing you find on terfisa slur but it makes them seem like it's a valid way to talk about other women. Which to me makes them the opposite of feminist as they're colluding in the silencing and aggression towards GC women. It's fine for them not to agree with me and I know what their opinion is of me not agreeing that transwomen are women but it seems like using the word terf goes a step further than just not agreeing?

I couldn’t really give a shit what other people call me to be honest. People can read my words and make up their own minds. Most people on my FB wouldn’t know what a t**f is anyway. Seeing some random throwing insults at me that they don’t even understand is going to have about as much affect as saying I’m responsible for the bad weather..

No, I’m inclined to say that women who call other women offensive slurs are not particularly feminist, especially when they are doing it to defend the bad behaviour of men, but that’s just my opinion. I’d call them handmaidens Of the patriarchy, if I could be arsed, which might not be very feminist either, but I really can’t be. Slanging matches and throwing insults around is benieth me.

Nope. Terf is a misogynistic term of abuse. Anyone who spends a bit of time online (especially on twitter) would know that..and know how its used (eg. usually followed by should die in a fire, or should suck my lady dick) so IMO any 'feminist' who uses this term is not a feminist, and there is a chance they are a MRA to be honest.

Any 'feminist' who centres men instead of women is not a feminist also.

It's inaccurate. I include all women however they identify in my feminism so I am insulted by its use.
In fact those that don't include trans-identifying women in their feminism are the exclusionary ones.

'Are you really a feminist if...' is actually an interesting topic, and since Feminism definitely isn't a monolith, I'm sure women's mileage will vary.

Personally, I get it in the neck from both radfems and libfems. Libfems denounce me as unfeminist because I don't believe TWAW.

Radfems call me unfeminist because I remove all body hair, wear makeup, bleach my hair, wear heels and revealing clothing. And for some radfems, this makes me SO UNFEMINIST, even despite my views (and real life activism) against Self-ID, against prostitution, evangelising about the dangers of porn and the sex industry in general, or my efforts for women's reproductive rights, or my work in women's shelters. According to some radfems, if you're a 'feminine' woman, you cannot call yourself a feminist. And no amount of explaining that it is my fully informed decision can change their minds.

Ultimately, I no longer care whether or not someone wants to call me a terf, a radfem, a libfem or a nonfem. I keep doing my own thing. And even despite my love for false lashes and a hairless vulva, I hope that, on balance, I'm a force for good.

(And to answer the original question - I believe that in this particular instance (and sex work and such) the libfem position is decidedly unfeminist)

Radfems call me unfeminist because I remove all body hair, wear makeup, bleach my hair, wear heels and revealing clothing.

I would say I was a radfem, and honestly I don't see how that makes you not a feminist. I do all of that too, except for the revealing clothing bit as I am overweight so..noone wants to see that

According to some radfems, if you're a 'feminine' woman, you cannot call yourself a feminist.

Thats just daft. And also, radfems I speak to would say that 'gender' (feminine or masculine) does not matter at all and its just personal choice.

That's my view too, Vixxxy, although I can appreciate the school of thought that femininity IS an oppressive construct of the patriarchy that does not benefit women. Femininity is, indeed, time, energy and resource-consuming, serves to make us decorative, makes us cater to the male gaze, and penalises women who don't conform.

I still choose to embrace femininity because I bloody love the ultrafeminine look. And nowadays I just roll my eyes at the radfems who claim that it makes me unfeminist.

I can appreciate the school of thought that femininity IS an oppressive construct of the patriarchy that does not benefit women

I do agree with that too. But I still think that its just personal choice. I know that a lot of women kind of have femininity forced on them and you are made to feel an outcast if you do not conform. But it is still up to the individual..

As I said, I am a radical feminist, or it seems that way. All my beliefs seem to align with radical feminism (except for whats discussed on here sometimes, with abortion. Apparently radfems should agree with abortion right up to term. I absolutely do not agree with that.) but I think berating women for wanting the feminine look is just ridiculous.

Every movement has its nutters, those are best ignored. :D

And I agree with you on abortion - I could never agree with aborting a healthy foetus that doesn't endanger the mother's life past the point where it can survive outside the mother's body.

... it looks like those of us who reject ideological purity will always get it in the neck no matter what we do.

If your feminism centres men who identify as women then I don't consider you a feminist. The rest of it - thinking prostitution is empowering and such - can be attributed to naivety or unexplored privilege. But if it isn't about women and girls it can't be feminism.

But any woman who becomes aware of the plight of young lesbians targeted by men who identify as lesbians and isn't revolted and angered on their behalf not only doesn't qualify as a feminist to my mind, but they're actively misogynist. Homophobic too.

I'm not fussed about how someone presents. Many young women who groom obsessively do so because they lack confidence. They need support, not criticism. I was kicked out of the only feminist group in my home town back in the Seventies because I wore make up and had sex with men, yet I remember Germaine Greer using her considerable sex appeal to get attention for her work.

Second wave feminism can be described. It presents a cohesive argument. My problem with libfem is that there doesn't appear to be any structure, any intellectual content to it.