Sunday Times GRA Survey

[FloraFox]

I may be being dim in this but I can’t find the results of the survey the Times has been running this week. Last I saw the vote was 98% against the question of whether anyone who self-identifies as a woman should have access to women’s spaces. It said the results would be published in this week’s Sunday Times but I can’t find it. Has anyone else found it?

You see, I don’t think that’s true. I think the Guardian are shit scared of doing a readers’ poll on the subject because it would match the Times’ one. Whenever there are comments allowed on trans articles they are overwhelmingly GC/pro women when you look at which comments get the most recommends.

My thoughts precisely.

It's blindingly obvious the Grauniad has spent the last couple of years attempting to manufacture consent. Hence the weeping and wailing from Roz K over that relatively weak editorial.

I'd still love to know precisely what they promised Kaveny.

I agree the Guardian would never poll this question.

I too would love to know what undertakings they made to Kaveney.

The results are published at the bottom of page 24 of The Times today, with no comment.

So it looks like they've just left it as part of the 7 Oct article on-line, but printed the results in the hard-copy version today

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/readers-poll-should-everyone-who-identifies-as-female-have-access-to-women-only-spaces-c36hw0qgk?shareToken=412b5508c56c2c569aad6b564c2026c3

Seems fair enough.

There have only been two sets of professional representative polling carried out so far:

PanelBase via Wings Over Scotland: 25% in favour of self-ID.

YouGov via Pink News: 18% in favour of self-ID.

The second was carried out several months after the first and with feminist campaigning and some media attention having raised public awareness somewhat. Helen Staniland is currently trying to get some polling done, and I'd be willing to bet we're well below 18% another few months on.

A new poll would be very useful right now.

Some of us disagree on polling methods. That shouldn't be a cause for rudeness or over reaction.

I agree. Bam's description of the limitations of self selecting polls are accurate. Poor public understanding of these limitations has been a key tool in Stonewall's promotion of the GRA. We should discuss these limitations even when the actual poll is on our side.

That said @BamBoooooo, I think you overstated your case, which is what caused the push back:

The survey is so unscientific they can't publish it as 'news'. That result is obviously skewed and doesn't reflect real life opinion.

10,000 is a big sample size for a cohort (Times estimated multiplatform reach by newsworks) of 1,500,000. Given the strength of the result I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that Times readers disagree with self ID.

I believe the crowdfunded poll results are due out early next week
twitter.com/helenstaniland/status/1053571989464670208

I bet Prick News were dismayed when they saw the results of the poll they commissioned. It wasn't as dramatic as The Times one, but 82% opposed is still massive and it was a serious poll. Must have cost a bit too.

TRAs seem to think only a hundred or so mean old feminists disagree with them. They just don't register how ordinary people react to Self ID or how people perceive things like males competing in women's sports.

I was very struck by Tweets about FPFW leafletting in Moss Side accusing them of inciting violence by informing working class men about the GRA consultation. Do they think no one will notice if Self ID becomes law, ffs? Were they planning to conceal it from the proles? And if so, how? It's telling that they jump to the conclusion that working class men will get violent rather than respond in other ways. Nasty snobbish bollocks from people who claim to be liberals/left wing.

I think you've got it right there, the TRA's who really believe in this are so wrapped up in it that they can't see how anyone doesn't want it, they’ve isolated themselves and convinced its a few hundred Radfems with secret American right wing evangelical backing.
It's like that Metro article written by a trans-woman, They are so secluded inside their own bubble that it's impossible for them to understand that a load of terms they were writing like CIS and TERF are unknown to 99% of the population and the article was incomprehensible.

97% is a huge deal, out of 10,000 respondents. It's not even a close race, like a tie at 50%, instead it's the overwhelming majority.

I'm sure the people at the GRA noticed.

I believe the crowdfunded poll results are due out early next week

Excellent news. I know she was having trouble because, apparently, the polling companies felt the word penis was "emotive" and wanted her to use the much more ambiguous male-bodied instead.

It's extremely useful when TRAs are insisting that everyone agrees with them except for a small group consisting of a few hundred bigoted dinosaur terfs.

Indeed. We already knew, that the general population would not agree. But poll after poll is agreeing with us now. Even the Penis news one did..I am surprised they published the results as I am sure they only did it to show 'terfs' they were wrong.

The crowdfunded poll..whats that about? I hope the questions are asked that male it absolutely clear what its about. I suspect that when told that selfID literally means any man..near nooone would be ok with it. I wodner why no polling companies would touch it? I thought it was going to be a yougov one. And I wonder what the compromises were.

Ah

They wouldn't ask the questions without changing them dramatically.

Yougov^

Most of the replies on that thread are hidden for some reason. I wonder why yougov wouldn't ask the questions. Very strange.

There’s no issue with the poll being ‘unscientific’ : they clearly state they asked their digital reader and say how many responses they got. It’s perfectly clear who they asked, the medium they asked via, how many responses they had and what the result was.

97% in favour of not allowing men in women’s spaces.

It's telling that they jump to the conclusion that working class men will get violent rather than respond in other ways. Nasty snobbish bollocks from people who claim to be liberals/left wing.

It's become increasingly clear to many (of my working class friends at least) that the liberal/left wing lot are extremely snobbish & nasty about many things.
The gender debate is just one example.

They don't seem to like it when the working classes disagree with them & speak up.

We should know our place, and believe that they know what's best for us - like good pets.

I always thought that the reason newspapers run regular reader polls is to see whether their editorial stance on certain issues is reflecting readers' views strongly, a little bit or not at all

I think polling companies require questions to be non-leading so as not to skew results (to protect their reputation).

So if you phrased a question "blibblebloops will kill your children and destroy everything you love. Do you have generally negative or positive feelings about blibblebloops?" they would disallow the question.

I suspect they may be running into issues with things like "80% of TW retain their penis. Do you think women should have to share a refuge with TW?"

This question is truthful, but it could also be seen as leading which wouldn't be allowed. It will be quite hard for them to define the terms they are using without being seen to be using leading questions IYSWIM - and we all know that failing to define the terms leads to meaningless results.

the TRA's who really believe in this are so wrapped up in it that they can't see how anyone doesn't want it, they’ve isolated themselves and convinced its a few hundred Radfems with secret American right wing evangelical backing.

That's the result of #nodebate and terfblocker. They have no idea what anyone else thinks.

97% in favour of not allowing men in women’s spaces

It's a bit unfortunate for TRAs really. Either the general public is really transphobic, or T*S aren't the tiny minority TRAs paint them as.

It's become increasingly clear to many (of my working class friends at least) that the liberal/left wing lot are extremely snobbish & nasty about many things.

The wokebros and the blue hairs are all aggressively classist. But y'know - they identify as leftists, so leftists they are.

Wankers.

I suspect they may be running into issues with things like "80% of TW retain their penis. Do you think women should have to share a refuge with TW?"

Ah I see. Yeah that makes sense. However, asking that question, with the respondents thinking that 'transwoman' means post operative transsexual (as most people think) will make the results false!

This petition is interesting: The majority of the signatures appear to be in good faith - and this is over 6,700 of Stonewall's natural supporters (going by the nature of the comments) pleading with them to reconsider :

www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

To have pissed off this number of their own supporters is a real own goal.

YEp there are a couple of TRA's who signed it just to comment how terrible it is, but most are genuine.