Owl and Fox Mumsnet Butterfly Reaction Video

[WatchThePotatoesBoil]

Yeah I know - I shouldn't have left a comment, but I couldn't help myself...

I actually feel a lot of sympathy for them, watching this. They flounder so badly in trying to come up with logical objections in order to defend their position, it's quite painful to watch. You can see it in their eyes at times, particularly the short haired one, the internal struggle to repress any doubts.

But I would like to say is it pisses me right off when people say Obviously you have never met a trans person.

Yeah. It was my transsexual family member who first alerted me to the behavior and demands of transactivists!

Imagining a scenario (amusing myself) Two groups turn up for their motivational hand clapping conference to find it’s been double booked

MLM v TRAs

Who would get the room..... it’s a tough call

They flounder so badly in trying to come up with logical objections in order to defend their position, it's quite painful to watch. You can see it in their eyes at times, particularly the short haired one, the internal struggle to repress any doubts.

They've made extreme changes to their bodies, which are mostly irreversible. Other people are questioning whether that is the right route to take for children who seem to be similar to the way they were as children.

I don't know at what age these two transitioned, but were they old enough to be sure that they were doing the right thing, or were they, themselves, propelled along a sparkly mermaids route, and are now having doubts?

But I would like to say is it pisses me right off when people say Obviously you have never met a trans person.
As with other posters, knowing a trans woman (AGP type) personally and seeing an increased sense of entitlement and militancy from the TRAs over the years led me here.

Fox was late 20s at least when Fox started hormones.
This pair really are thick.

Why have they got daft names? Do they self ID as woodland critters the?

Fox changed Fox's name from Rachel, and Owl is icelandic and Owl's name apparently translates to Owl.

Their entire "careers" seem to be based around the trans ideology, so they have a vested interest in keeping he whole charade going...

Owl and Fox Fisher display classic male female socialised behaviour. Even when you look at still images of the pair. Fox is uncertain, slightly nervous, eager to please adopts submissive stances, looks to others for approval. Owl's expression is arrogant, self righteous, certain of themselves, dominating.

Agree.

Oh that's sad, they explain that if you don't identify with girl things then you are going to think you are not innately a girl. How sad.

Yes, and they would claim that they are actually subverting gender by Owl being a forceful woman, and Fox being an uncertain fella.

Well, no, they probably wouldn't. It would take a little more than the shared Braincell to concoct even that.

I actually feel a lot of sympathy for them, watching this. They flounder so badly in trying to come up with logical objections in order to defend their position, it's quite painful to watch.

Yes, I thought this when they were talking about the gender stereotypes near the beginning, when they were talking about the mermaids not having genitals etc (wtf?) and when they were sort of doing a faux incredulous laugh at some of the actually quite good points raised on the thread. Also the bit about how you can't make someone think they are trans if they are not. Of course you can, look at what Mermaids are showing with their 'do you identify more as Barbie or GI Joe' bull crap.

They have invested a lot into this whole thing, and the messed up thing is that they need children to be growing up believing it in order to validate what they have done.

I also agree with the male/female socialised behaviour of each of them.

Avegemite It's the Sunk cost fallacy

In short, you've invested so much already in time, money, emotional or practical stuff, you just keep ploughing on, despite all evidence that it may not be a good idea.

Sunk cost fallacy transformed my approach to relationships, life, just everything really. Most of us have done it at some point int life. You just keep going, because you've already invested so much into what you're doing.

And, you know what, I think someone on Mumsnet introduced me to it. I love this place!

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sunk-cost-fallacy

You can see how they were socialized as Owl frequently interrupts Fox and then talks on without expecting to be interrupted.

Mumsnet=a huge array of women representing 50% of the population. Stereotyping and dismissing us, instead of listening to and engaging with us is very shortsighted. Many of us (not all) are raising the next generation and so it would be a lot smarter to respectfully connect with, rather than demonize parents unless they completely buy into their ideology.

I have three teens who I discuss all these issues with, they also all take science classes along with langauge arts and I am encouraging them to keep it that way at university because I want them to remain connected to OBJECTIVE REALITY.

All this bullshit at the end blaming journalists who have a different opinion on trans people’s suffering. Not being able to cope with people having a different opinion than you and blaming reading a different opinion on a decline in your mental health is a sign of a very fragile identity. As much as you want to police what the rest of the world thinks and writes, there will ALWAYS be people who don’t agree with you and have a different opinion.

That is reality.

If your self-identify collapses when people don’t agree with you I would suggest that your identity may not be based on something psychologically solid. It is classic cult thinking that everyone has to parrot a certain line of thought and are punished for free expression and free speech.

Hi Fox and Owl! I'm pretty sure you're following this thread. I noticed you quoted me quite a lot in your video. Let me just a couple of points.

Firstly, a lot of trans-identified children might actually be gay. A boy like Max who shows 'feminine' qualities will pick up from an early age that to be gay is seen as bad, but to be a girl is fine. Look at how Max is teased for 'being gay'. That was the point about Jazz Jennings. Jazz showed feminine characteristics from an early age, and was encouraged down the trans route by their parents. Jazz claimed to be have been gay 'in a past life', but to have not been accepted. It's not beyond the bounds of imagination that Jazz is telling us that they think they are actually a gay man - and that they might have ended up living happily as a gay man if circumstances had been different.

Secondly, you use left-handed kids as an example of a group who have suddenly started to appear in schools. But teachers always knew about left-handed children and intervened. The phenomenon of children who slash their wrists, wet themselves if they can't use 'the right bathroom' and threaten to cut off their body parts like Max in this drama was pretty much unknown in the past. It's something that's being pushed for ideological reasons now, and we need to be cautious.

If being trans is a normal variation of the human condition (like being gay or being left handed), why does it need so much medical intervention? Maybe Fox and Owl could answer that?

Just having a little chuckle at the thought of Owl and Fox’s reactions to this thread and the subsequent Googling of different dictionary definitions of ‘reactionary’ to see if they can possibly conceive of a way to interpret it to mean what they want it to mean. Ah hahaha.

In case the animals of farthing wood are reading this I want to clarify that suggesting children could be sucked into identifying as trans if they see stuff like this on TV is not at all the same as saying children can be made gay. The analogy is more like;

Boy who fancies girls sees a boy on TV who fancies other boys. Remains straight.

Boy who fancies boys sees boy on TV who fancies boys, realised he's gay and that it's okay!

Boy who like pink sparkly stuff sees a boy on TV who likes pink sparkly stuff become a trans girl, and so thinks he must be a girl too.

So many stories of trans kids start with the parents pushing gender stereotypes on them before eventually 'accepting' that they are trans. Perhaps if parents accepted their natural preferences for toys/ clothes/ haircuts they wouldn't need to relabel themselves to find somewhere to fit in.

Healthy: boy likes doing girl* things, wears pink and plays with dolls. Parents buy boy a doll and pink pajamas. Boy grows up to be happy, possibly effeminate or gay, or not man. Who likes pink. Or not.

Unhealthy: boy likes doing girl things, is told he’s actually a girl and given hormones to stop him developing as a boy, then sterilised and mutilated. Now it’s ok for him to like pink

Owl and fox push a deeply regressive, homophobic ideology.

Let children be who they want, play with what they want and dress in what they want. And when they’re older as adults let them develop whatever sexuality they have. Gosh, that’s such a backwards, bigoted thing of me to think! Oh wait, no it’s YOU who are backwards and bigoted, Fox ad owl. And very harmful to children to boot.

*I mean whatever the heck girl things are...

If there was an Owl and Fox AMA, I would offer them the following thought experiment:

Supposing there were no gender stereotypes in clothing/hairstyles/children’s toys/hobbies/jobs. Suppose pink/unicorns/glitter:dancing were associated with ALL children, ditto blue, football etc.

In such a society, how would we be able to tell if a child was trans? What would they say? How would they explain their ‘transness’? How would they reveal their discomfort at being in the wrong body? What words might they use?

Would they actually feel they were in the wrong body?

Would love to know their take on this.

Fox and Owl have a commercial interest in increased numbers of trans children and teens. They have a book out...

blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9781785923418?gC=5a105e8b&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm_Goi_6Z3gIV2ZTVCh03AARMEAQYAiABEgL51_D_BwE

Excellent questions, waterlego, but I don’t think those two are smart enough to engage at that level.