Why a woman catcalling a man is not the same as a man catcalling a woman?

[VMisaMarshmallow]

Because apparently minelials don’t get it.

It’s gross when women slap a man’s butt or woolfwhistle or make comments on a guys body. But it’s not the same.

I’ve explained that sexual violence is men in women not women on men, I’ve explained class oppression, I’ve explained how a man walking home when a woman propositions him isn’t scared, or if he is it’s not because he’s a man. It’s not sinking in so help me with wording please, or links to (simple) articles?

Thanks. Not disputing that some women sexually abuse/harass males at times but that a woman say nice package doesn’t contain the threat that a man commenting similar does to us. I pointed out the equivilant to colour blindness also. If you think I’m wrong I’m happy to listen to that explanation also.

No I kinda agree tbh.

Although I do not condone that kind if behaviour at all. Whatever way round it is.

Women as a rule are not a threat to men. The comments don't often come with having your exit blocked off or turning nasty if you aren't grateful for the attention.

However I obviously think it's unnecessary disgusting behaviour full stop

Agree OP. Women cat calling men is unpleasant, but there is no threat of violence to follow implicit in it the way there is when men do it to women.

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

Are you drunk OP?

Because men are physically stronger than women on average and gendered sexual violence is endemic in our society.

A man catcalling a woman, even if he would never consciously think of it in those terms, always has an undercurrent of real threat. There's a real power imbalance in the dynamic.

Women are not in the position to make those kind of threats to men.

To be fair it sounds like you've already explained it fine. You can't force them to understand if they don't want to.

By the way I'm a millennial (30) and it's not hard to understand so I doubt this is a generational issue.

A woman catcalling a man is unlikely to pose real physical danger. Men don't fear rape and violence. It's a man's world. Our patriarchal society still sends the message that men have a right to women's bodies. The structure of our environment makes one worse than the other.

I wouldn't do it, but I agree, it's not the same. We're not living in a world where men fear women's violence. Men don't need to reject women in such a way that protects their ego. We're not living in a world where men need women's approval more than women need men's approval or where a man is more likely to have a female boss who abuses her power without even realising she's doing it. For hundreds of reasons it's not the same at all. But I wish rowdy hen parties wouldn't play in to men's hands by objectifying men. It happens sometimes and gives men the opportunity to say ''oh yes, me too, I had my arse patted but you don't see me complaining''

It is still embarrassing and intimidating.
Younger men can be intimidated by older women in particular.
I don’t agree that wolf whistling has that level of threat of sexual violence, it is intimidation and someone trying to show a position of power over someone else.
Women suffer more sexual violence, yes, but “nice package” can cause a similar level of discomfort as being wolf whistled by a scaffolder.

The others things you are talking about are not the same IMO.

I agree with the above, and would add that it's a constant, public reminder that women exist to please or serve men, to look attractive, to meet certain standards of appearance and conduct.

It also forces women and girls into a position where they have to consider and perhaps temper their reaction - as Giles says, weigh up the threat of violence, intimidation or abuse; or laugh along for fear of being seen as a prude/humourless/stuck-up; or show displeasure and risk a backlash and an earful of angry, misogynist slurs for not responding the way she's "meant" to.

Men who are unhappy with being catcalled by women do not, in general, face being showered with abuse or rage (or spit), or told they need "a good seeing to", or disparaged as a less-than-acceptable example of manhood. That's because they're not told from birth that they should be "nice", they should look sexy, they should be grateful for any and all attention, that their purpose is to be sexual objects for women, that it's more trouble than it's worth to argue because they'll just face abuse, intimidation or even physical violence.

Generally, women and girls are brought up surrounded by those messages, and when men catcall them, it simply reinforces that - almost as if there's an unspoken "dare" to step out of line and react in the wrong way.

I don't entirely agree. I think there's a possibility of associated violence or aggression (or at least a reminder of it). It's not necessarily implicit.

You could try this analogy on them:

If you're alone in an isolated public place, using an expensive smartphone, and someone walking towards you looks at your phone and says "Nice phone", would your feeling of vulnerability vary depending on the person who said it? Eg a young man, a woman pushing a pram, or an elderly person? If so, why do you feel like that? The comment "Nice phone" is the same but your perception of the possibility of being mugged probably varies depending on the person who said it.

Star why are you so rude?

I agree it is just as unacceptable, and I don’t doubt there are individual cases where an individual woman’s harassment or abuse of a man cause fear, but as a class men don’t fear womens’ violence if they dislike their sexual advances.

Thanks all. It’s frustrating. It’s equally unacceptable either way around but the arguement was that if a man came onto a woman in the same way (to the example we were discussing) it would never be tolerated (ha!) and that it’s exactly the same and so unfair that there’s no recognition of how unfair to men it is that women get away with this behaviour. Which to me is not only insulting but it’s obscuring the issue that women experience sexual comments within the climate of men harassing/killing/stalking/raping us and within the knowledge of our physical vulnerability to them. Imho it’s harmful to whitewash that by claiming it’s the exact same thing.

But thank you, at least I know I’m not going crazy. And yes I hate the hen parties etc also, but any man walking home on his own in the middle or the night may not like the hen party’s comments and behaviour as they pass him, but he won’t fear them raping him and if he wants to tell them to fuck off he can without fear of their violence. Swap the roles round and it’s a very different thing for us women. In fact, let’s face it, almost all of us would manage our nights carefully to ensure we wouldn’t be waking home alone to pass a drunken stag night anyways. We already modify our behaviour, before the threat of violence, before the objectification, before the come ons. We already spend time and energy and effort (and money) keeping ourselves safe for men’s sexual harassment, something men don’t ever worry about from us, or even notice that we do this. So any lewd comments or catcalls or unwanted attention even needs to be viewed within this context we live in already. I think perhaps the problem is the young woman im arguing with doesn’t believe she lives within this context. Many (often younger) women seem to reject the reality women live in as something other women experience and not them, as they know they are equal to men. I understand that rejection of the suffocating reality of being a woman, but I can’t see anyway to counter it. But thank you for helping me to see I’m just banging against a brick wall.

I disagree, we have to be fair - no sexual harassment cuts both ways. It's just as derogatory to make comments about males as females. This isn't about threat, wolf whistling isn't threatening, it's about decency and we women need to be equal and not do what we don't wish to receive

Two important differences: it doesn‘t happen to men very often, and the danger that women will turn abusive or violent is minimal. So a man will experience emotions raging from amusement to annoyance, but not fear.

Quite a few men probably find it flattering, which is probably why they imagine that women ought to find it flattering too.

I agree it’s equally derogatory, i didn’t say it wasn’t. But a man doesn’t fear s woman will rape him if he tells her to F off if she sleezes all over him on a night out. Women do. To say it’s the exact same thing obscures that women live with the threat of sexual violence from day one, and that we are socialised to appease men so as not to provoke that violence, so if they are sleezing all over us in a bar on a night out we can’t merely say fuck the hell off as we fear violent repercussions. Saying it’s the same threat men live with is insulting, and no different to colour blindness.

I agree it's not the same.

Us guys don't fear physical violence from a woman, but there is the fear of not being able to defend oneself for fear of the law taking the side of the women - I've seen guys getting repeatedly punched by women outside of clubs whilst the onlookers laugh and being too afraid to fight back. I've also heard of situations where women have used the threat of "I'll say you tried to rape me."

I'd imagine it's nowhere close to the level at which men bother women, but there are certainly individual things which us men worry about when alone with women whose intentions we aren't sure of.

It’s a myth that the law takes the side of women though.

I don’t have the memory to keep track of articles/links but there is literature that analyses women’s prosecutions and shows women get much harsher sentences for the same crimes as men, and literature that shows that the police find male victims more credible witnesses, and any male reporting a crime is more likely to see their abuser be prosecuted, found guilty and given a harsher sentence in comparison to a woman reporting a crime, where she faces being blamed, thought not a credible witness, finds it less likely her abuser will be prosecuted, found guilty or given a compatible sentence if found guilty. No one ever uses the term crying rape about a man do they? I suck at remembering details but I’m sure this board would be the exact place to find links to such information if you need it.

there is literature that analyses women’s prosecutions and shows women get much harsher sentences for the same crimes as men

I always thought it was the other way around? It's literally in the top 10 MRA gotcha list (alongside workplace fatalities and child custody).

If you're a criminal defendant, it may help—a lot—to be a woman. At least, that's what Prof. Sonja Starr's research on federal criminal cases suggests. Prof. Starr's recent paper, "Estimating Gender Disparities in Federal Criminal Cases," looks closely at a large dataset of federal cases, and reveals some significant findings. After controlling for the arrest offense, criminal history, and other prior characteristics, "men receive 63% longer sentences on average than women do," and "[w]omen are…twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted." This gender gap is about six times as large as the racial disparity that Prof. Starr found inanother recent paper.

www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

Women receive much shorter sentences than even white men — though the difference also varies by race.

www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/women-arent-always-sentenced-by-the-book-maybe-men-shouldnt-be-either/amp/

When do women ever cat call men? Seriously. Or slap a man's behind who she's never met. Really?

A woman catcalling a man may make him feel embarrassed but it will seldom make him feel unsafe. Groping a man in a club is not acceptable but it won't put the fear of God unto him.

When people (usually MRAs) pipe up about "well I wouldn't care if a woman grabbed my bum" I always ask "OK then, what about a gay bloke who's a foot taller and a foot wider than you - how would you feel if he grabbed your bum and suggested he could go fuck you in the toilets? Because that's our equivalent, that's how women are made to feel." You can practically see their balls jump up into their body.

The 'women get lesser sentences' in a massive red herring too.

Firstly, criminals are not some marginalised group.

Secondly, you can only measure the accuracy of this if every crime committed by a female and also a man were like-for-like in circumstance.

For example:

Steven gets caught shoplifting, and is challenged by a female member of staff who is 6 inches shorter than him and small in stature. In a burst of anger at being caught he punches the member of staff in the face.

Sheila gets caught shoplifting, and is challenged by a female member of staff who is 6 inches shorter than her and small in stature. In a burst of anger at being caught she punches the member of staff in the face.

The likelihood that both Sheila and Steve enter the same pleas, apologise to the victim, show remorse, have a reason for their actions or bad personal circumstances relating to the offences (shoplifting due to job loss for example) are extremely slim.

Let's says Steve pleads not guilty, taking this to Crown Court, shows no remorse, is flippant and aggressive throughout his trial, and his violence ensured the victim sustained a broken jaw.

And let's say Sheila pleaded guilty, saving the trial going to Crown Court, apologised to the victim, who (due to Sheila being female) came away with just a bruised cheek and showed genuine remorse.

Of course Sheila will get a lesser sentence than Steve. Sentences are not prescribed. There's no chart a judge or magistrate looks at which says:
Aggravated assault: 5 years
Shoplifting: 6 months
And that's what you get regardless.
A fair justice system must always take other factors into account. Custodial sentences in part are there to rehabilitate, so it's no surprise that showing no remorse can land you in prison.

I'll give a real life example - Adam Johnson seemingly got a 'harsh' sentence for sexually assaulting a child (I don't think he got long enough but there you go). It was unusually high for this country, but he played silly beggars by pleading not guilty on all his charges, right up until the Eve of his trial, when he changed the 'grooming' plea to guilty. The judge isn't stupid - he knew this was because a guilty plea would have resulted in Johnson being suspended from the England team, and he wanted to play for as long as he could, then enter his please when it suited him in the hope the judge would look kindly on it. He also showed no remorse and laughed his way through the trial, showing that he was not taking it seriously. Reading the sentencing remarks, the judge rightly factored all this in when sentencing him.

MRA's are either too dumb or too proud to understand this, but it's how it is.

Because men catcalling women is against the backdrop of men being responsible for committing 98% of sexual assault. The cat calling is a part of systemic and normalised male violence - especially to dominate women and keep them uncomfortable in public spaces.

There was a great analysis going round on Twitter la

Fick, dislocating thumbs day again sorry.

There was analysis links going round on Twitter last year to a website that looked at how women receive much harsher sentences from the courts for the same kind of crimes. Like I said I don’t have a good memory and I store store links like many but I had seen links to it here so if you want to know the truth it wouldn’t be difficult to find. TRA’s claim 48% of trans kids commit Sui when we know the actual rates are 0.14%, MRAs are no more credible imho.

A quick google finds a website called solidarity US that looks at how battered women are convicts of murder and given much higher sentences than men and an article from Julie Bindel talking about the same thing with regards to a mother who killed her children and despite being mentally unwell recurved the worst sentence of its kind in the UK at the time. Andrea Leason would be another obvious example of that, clearly suffering untreated post natal psychosis with repeated births (a husband who knew this but continued to impregnate her, get her no real help, isolate her within a religious cult and leave her to care for all his children alone knowing how unstable she was) yet her mental illness was never taken into account at all and she’s demonised by Americans.