Feminism & children / emotional labour

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Never posted on this board, so I'm sorry if I come across ignorant, or I'll-informed. I'm not entirely sure of my own thought on the following, so I might appear incoherent.

Basically I wanted to canvas your thoughts on how feminism works when you have a child. I've always been ambitious and independent. Had children mid-30s, so was well set up in my career. I've worked part-time since having them which has worked well, in that I want to be with my kids, but it has obviously impacted my career. I'm freelance, so in a way I've managed to do as much work as I would if I was working full-time. However, the work just simply is not of the same quality, and my drive is pretty much non-existent due to the fact that my brain is filled with thoughts about the kids, nursery pick-ups, drops offs, mealtimes, parties, vaccinations, play dates etc.

Meanwhile dp has gone from strength to strength. He pulls his weight, is a really good man, thoughtful etc. But the pure fact is that I'm the one who's suffered career wise. Maybe it's just a case of having to come to terms with the fact that I chose to go freelance / part time, but I've started feeling slightly resentful. Not particularly at him, but almost at me / the system. It seems that biologically, women are programmed to want to be with their kids. As a result everything else in their lives takes a bit of a hit. I understand that many women are very happy and fulfilled to be sahms, and that is absolutely not at odds with being a feminist. But how does it work if you want to work and have a child and be a feminist?

I hope I've made sense!

Subsidized daycare helps, and compulsory paternal leave would help too, I should think. I'm clawing my career back but I'm lucky to live in a place where there are generous subsidies for daycare from birth. But I do get a lot of Looks and "Oh she's so small to be in nursery!" And I guess I'm selfish or biologically abhorrent or something because being alone all day with DD is not something I enjoy at all.

Rambling a bit, sorry

Have you shared this with your partner? You might be able to come to a compromise that gives you time where you can focus. If he really is as lovely as you say, he should see the inequality here.

Well, I’m not sure why you seem to think you can’t be a working mother and a feminist? Feminism is about female liberation! So you can! I completely understand your resentment, it’s something many of us experience. Sometimes I don’t know where to direct my frustrations either! My husband is an amazing man, but he can’t do anything about the fact that women with careers will have their career impacted if they are a stay at home Mum for any period, the longer you do it the worse the impact is. My elderly Mum just said to me the other day, ‘oh yes, nothing changed for your father when we had you kids, nothing changed for him when you all left home, and nothing changed when we divorced. He had the same job and house, income, everything. But each of those life changes affected my daily life, my earnings potential, my confidence and my body!’
She’s absolutely right of course. I don’t know what the solution is exactly but I know that mothers roles are under-appreciated in society, often in the home and workplace too, and we get no considerations in terms of how it affects earning potential and career goals.

I even get annoyed that all school emails are sent to me automatically from the start, not her father. Especially fundraising ones! Huh? I work too, why does everything come to me?!

Nothing you've described affects whether or not you're a feminist. It's just the reality of living in a world that is tipped against you. It really becomes apparent for many women when they have children.

I would disagree that it's somehow biologically programmed for women to want to be with their children. The power of socialisation and expectations is great. And you're assuming that men don't feel that way. Lots of men would love to have had more time off with their children but up until very recently it hasn't been possible. Shared parental leave is an attempt to address that, but the way it's been set up means it's inevitably not going to be popular. What is needed is proper paternity leave that doesn't require the mother to relinquish her maternity leave. Men should get paid paternity leave for at least 6 months, ideally up to a year like mat leave.

If men had leave like this, then they would be more likely to pick up some of the emotional labour of managing the logistics of children.

Of course, your DP working full time is no excuse for him not to know what's going on with his children. No reason why he can't sort out various things of an evening, or during his lunch break etc etc. Make some of the admin his responsibility, if you're working part time then you shouldn't be doing all the kids stuff too!

Sorry I suppose what i meant was how do you reconcile having feminist principles in this sort of situation.

Very interesting to read your posts @AssassinatedBeauty. I suspect the parental leave plays such a huge part. I guess that would be a solution of sorts, along with a broader change in societal expectations.

It's interesting that you don't think it's ingrained. I always presumed that the maternal instinct of having carried a baby for 9 months drives a level of care/responsibility/ guilt (I'm sure there's many more appropriate words) that men will just never experience.

I’m freelance too and I don’t feel the quality of my work has declined. In fact it is higher. I “only” work about 25hrs a week but when I’m working I am 100% working and focussed and I don’t think at all about my child or being a mum.

I wish I was more like you @museumum

When I went back to work after my first child, I also found myself struggling to focus and probably not doing my best work. It was actually symptomatic of not liking my chosen career, and it just became harder to ignore once I had something more important to think about! I changed jobs and changed career and am soo much happier in my current role. When I'm at work I rarely think about my child, and I enjoy what I do.

I wonder if there could be something similar at play with you?

Sorry I suppose what i meant was how do you reconcile having feminist principles in this sort of situation

I guess that’s why we come to boards like this? To network, discuss ideas to implement change, hear about campaigns. In the end we are all doing the best we can with the situation we are in. But if we spend some time trying to find a way to make it better, in our own families or society generally, then that can ease the frustration I think. Are you interested in working full time? I never was after I had mine, so part time from home the whole time. Having children does inevitably impact our careers, we have find a balance we are each comfortable with. Maybe you haven’t found yours yet? Are you happy with your chosen career? Is it a case of needing to find a different path?

I believe that a new mother's desire to be with her children is biologically driven and I really don't agree with the whole socialisation argument. The hormones associated with being pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding (if you choose to do this) exist to bond mother and baby together and it is nature's way of ensuring the survival of the baby. Men are simply not subjected to the same experience or hormones at the beginning and I do think this often has a long term impact on bonding and consequently men's desire to sacrifice their careers for their children. I know my view is controversial and unpopular on this forum.

I think your OP is interesting as I often think there is a presumption that women that go PT after having a baby or give up work completely have chosen this for their own benefit, because they want to spend time with their children. Speaking for myself and my friends, often this decision is made as it's seen to be in the best interest of the child. Depending on your thoughts on childcare this can be to avoid it altogether or simply to prevent your baby/child spending "too long" there. Lots of women put their child's welfare and interest over their own and are emotionally conflicted, feeling that they want to prioritise their children but also feeling sadness that this has meant that they don't have some of their own more self orientated needs or wants met.

Men rarely seem to have this conflict.

Trying to nail this down. If it’s a choice...you would rather focus on your children than a career, then there is nothing wrong in that. And it’s nit too surprising that your career suffers if you are not totally focussed on it. Where I think it becomes a feminist issue is
1j Where you are expected to take the career hit. So when a school always rings mum first even if the lousy ex isn’t working. When men can’t get parental leave. When men assume women are less committed even if they are supported by a stay at home dad
2) when your feeling of self worth decreases because you are JUST a mother which, like any caring role is (imho) undervalued in our society.
3) the whole way work is focussed around 40 hr weeks. I am always amazed that every job takes the same amount of time.
4) when men shirk the responsibilities they helped create because it is much more tolerated that a man has eg hobbies, and a women disappearing for a weekend marathon would be considered selfish,

I wonder also if the move towards a nuclear family rather than a societal family has restricted the options / horizons for women somewhat. Long gone are the days when maiden aunts lived in and the prams left out so that women whose primary role was childcare And home nevertheless may have had a broader less child focussed lifestyle

Sorry, been on my mind a lot lately for no reason

It is the way our culture and work is focused.

In Finland by comparison they have a concept of unpaid childcare leave, which is available to either parent until their youngest child is 3. I know a couple who've swapped over roles. They then return to their old employment. I'm not sure how it works in practice but it sounds wonderful.

Really interesting thread...

I gave up work for a bit and it has ended up that I have not done paid work for 1 year and a half.

I had amassed what I thought was a lot of savings before I did this.

I had a senior role and assumed I would get back into employment when I needed / wanted to.

I was working supposedly part time hours but sometimes it was 50 hours plus weeks and I was only getting paid for 30 but was paid well and the expectation was unpaid overtime and I did have flexibility.

Now... well I am exhausted - I pretty much have sole care of my children.

My other half works massive hours Monday to Friday and isn't home until midnight and leaves house at 8 am (building a business)
I have only had 1 or 2 nights off in the last 15 months.

I do it all and don't have anyone to help me as family are not near. Every medical appointment everything about the house and maintenance shopping cooking cleaning homework and other activities.

My husband does help out when he is here but he is also tired.

One of my children is actually very difficult and has behavioural issues meaning it can take me hours of time with him so I still find myself cleaning the house until midnight many times a week and getting up at 6 am.
I have also had some developmental issues and my other child has had health issues.

My husband has a good job but I have had to use my savings for unforeseen events.

I intend getting back to work after Christmas but I am surprised how being a SAHM has sucked all my energy and I mean all of it.

My world feels very small and the financial worries make me sick.

I think I had no idea how hard it would be.

I can't make my other half work less when I am not working.

When I get a job he will be able to help out more but I just can't believe I got myself into a vulnerable position by giving up a job.

I think because I had always worked I just didn't factor how vulnerable I would feel and how much I contributed to the family finances.

I think it has been the right thing for my children and my husband ... but for me - no way.

Also I can't stand the way I actually have done so much voluntary work.
I feel very used in the free time I give to others when I know I will just be home later working until 1 am or 2 am.

I have though recently managed to pull away from voluntary work.

I can't wait to work again - but need to find time to go to interviews and get ready for work.

I honestly think being a sahm has been a really bad move.

Agree with so much of what you write @MIdgebabe.

@whazzer I think the irony of being a SAHM of small DC is that I do honestly believe that it can be more exhausting and harder than working in a stressful job. I think this can depend on age and temperament of the children involved and your own temperament and what you personally find easy or challenging. Yet society somehow manages to stereotype the SAHP role as easy and worthless. This brings me onto my opinion about how caring for children is compatible with both liberal and radical feminism...

I basically think our patriarchal society has been structured in a way that demeans and devalues women's natural (and I believe biological) inclination to care for their own children and put ours kids before ourselves. I can speak for myself and lots of my friends when I say that we were shocked by the overwhelming desire we had to focus on our babies once they arrived. Before I had children I was absolutely adamant I wouldn't become the "little woman" stuck at home as a SAHP with little status or power. I perceived women who did this to be lesser and letting down the feminist cause, they had taken the easy route and were inferior to other women who stayed focussed on their careers and fought to be the equivalent of men.

Soon after I had my first baby I had a rude awakening. Being at home looking after my baby wasn't easy at all, but I believed that it was important that I was there doing it. Suddenly I could see that the baby wasn't just an accessory that I had added to my previous life, but they were the focus and priority in my life. This change happened deep within me and had literally nothing to do with social conditioning or societal expectations, in fact it was absolutely the opposite as I had been conditioned to think so poorly of being a SAHP. Having done some research I now believe we have become so obsessed with our own individual money, status and power that we have lost the emphasis on family.

This isn't a criticism of women and I am not suggesting that everyone must drop down to PT hours or be a SAHM to be a good mother. What I am saying though is that I do believe the urge for mothers to do this is natural and normal and not necessarily something women should fight against or seek to destroy. What I do think we should be fighting for is for wome(and men) to have the option to work flexibly and not be penalised so heavily for what might be a relatively short amount of time out of the workforce if they want to be SAHPS. I also think that we should fight for the work associated with caring for children to be valued more highly and recognised for how difficult it is.

What you’re experiencing is the conflict between how you would like the world to be and how it actually is - set up by men to benefit men.

Your individual choices are just that - being a sahm/whom/part timer is just what you do to make this work as best you can within the confines of both your individual circumstances and those of wider society.

We can criticise that wider social context without criticising the individual choice.

This is an excellent thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen

I get what you mean about feminism. I think you can still be a feminist and a SAHM of course, but it's about the feeling of 'giving up' everything you've worked towards and resenting your partner because they, as a man, haven't. It is a feminist issue. Sometimes I feel I should put my foot down and demand he takes more time off when DD is sick or whatever, but the reality is it falls on me as the lower earner with a more flexible job.

@legalseagull
Yes I know what you mean and think there might be two different things going on here.

1. Women choosing to go down to PT/be SAHPs because they think it's in the best interests of their child and are more likely to prioritise this over their own careers. Because I think this is biologically driven (controversial I know) then I think society should be restructured to facilitate this with as little possible impact to that woman's career as possible.
2. Women not actively choosing to be the primary carer but becoming this be default. This can be either because the father simply won't step up or it's impractical for them to do for financial reasons. This one is more about socialisation as well as other factors such as women tending to marry older men who have more established careers and therefore earn more. I imagine it would take a fair bit of unpicking but definitely important to tackle.

I work 30 hours a week, basically to make it possible to drop off and pick up the children (aged 3 and 1) while still working the number of hours I am supposed to. And yes, it was me and not DP who cut my hours and I don't think that was a coincidence. It was the standard 'practical' reasons (he makes more money than I do, his employers were less open to the possibility) that turn out to be the same for the majority of heterosexual couples because we live in a sexist society.

I don't think about my children that much when I'm at work, although obviously they cross my mind from time to time. I love my children but I actually don't feel any desire to spend all or most of my time with them. I strongly sense the message from society that I supposed to feel guilty about this, but I don't.

Things that help are the availability of highly subsidised (hence very affordable), high quality childcare where we live.

The way parental leave works is also a positive - the father has a certain amount of non-transferable leave so for most couples, the woman who gave birth will end up taking more leave for really good biological reasons (recovery from pregnancy and birth, possible breastfeeding) but the father will have some months being the stay-at-home parent to his baby after the mother has gone back to work. You have to do it like that to get the maximum amount of leave for your baby. I have found it really helpful for challenging the idea that looking after the baby is the woman's natural role and preventing the mother from becoming the 'default parent'.

Love the posts on this thread- thank you.

I realised I have been putting others people first... or thought I had but I have not been coping.

Last night I binge watched a tv series through the night / totally nuts as I didn't sleep but I actually enjoyed it.

Today I had a long chat with my more challenging older son - it turns out from his perspective I have been shouty and not always made him feel safe.

Some of his behaviour is a reaction to how I have acted to him - and I admit in my most tired and fed up states I think I have let out on him my frustrations at this sahm life.

I realise I just got myself too tired doing all this sahm stuff without support.

Going to start looking for a job.

Funnily enough I never acted shouty when I was employed.

bumpitybumper your post resonated with me so strongly.

I really have had a think about how challenging the kids I have are and really had my eyes opened - I have had some time to reflect about my temperament and I think I was letting out my frustration about how unfair I feel things are on my eldest son.

I think I have been really angry about being a sahm.

I love my kids so much and I guess I thought I would have this fairy time Mary poppens time off with them which has not worked out.

I think I need to work at least part time as I want some economic independence.

I have also realised that i have put unrealistic expectations on me and my children.

Fucking awful but I think I can claw things back and cope again soon.

Amazing responses from everyone. Thank you so much. It really is good to get a variety of perspectives, as well as feeling that these issues are chiming with many people (I obviously knew that I went alone in these thoughts, but good to see them written down).

I think I'm happy in the work I do, but it's virtually impossible to challenge myself in a 18 hour working week.

I personally agree that in my case there was a biologically driven desire to be as present as possible for my children. I think this was reinforced by societal expectations. I certainly think that societal expectations meant that it was at the forefront of my partners mind to take paternity leave etc.

However, now the children are slightly older (4 and 3) I feel like I'm struggling. Even though I know that for many I have a good balance. I feel frustrated and resentful that my partners career has excelled and that is now our starting point. Why would he stay at home / go part time/ do pick ups, when he earns more money / job less flexible etc

Sorry that should say *NOT take paternity leave.

JUst want to chip in, that I do think that men can also feel a strong emotional attachment to their children. It’s not a purely women thing. Men can get depression when their partner miscarries. They are expected by society to be less bothered. Before I get slammed, The relevance of men here is if men were allowed to be themselves more then the impact on women would be better.