Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Eligibility to compete in female sport - intersex and transgender

23 replies

QuietContraryMary · 17/10/2018 14:38

So on the basic level we have XX and XY being female and male.

On a slightly deeper level there is the SRY gene, the testis-determining factor, which is found in on the Y chromosome in normal human development, and can be translocated to the paternal X chromosome resulting in a person with XX chromomsomes having male sexual characteristics, while being infertile and having typically female stature, or in the case of an SRY- XY individual, female sexual characteristics but a more male stature.

On the XY side there are conditions such as 5α-Reductase deficiency, which is a genetic disorder resulting in individuals having testicles inside their body but having in many cases female external genitalia, resulting in the individuals being assigned female at birth. As this is a recessive, inherited condition, it is locally more common in certain regions, though globally rare. People with 5ARD are SRY+. Those with 5ARD may be assigned female at birth without much thought, and raised at such. Given the presence of testes producing testosterone, at puberty 5ARD individuals are virilised to some degree, and it some may change gender identity to male, though this is not at all universal. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

Separately to the issue of 5ARD, there is the issue of androgen insensitivity. Androgen sensitivity is linked to the AR gene on the X chromosome. A recessive mutation can cause an XX or XY individual to not respond to be either partially or totally immune to the affects of testosterone. Hence, since the formation of male genitalia occurs in utero in response to testosterone, an XY individual who is totally androgen insensitve, will be born with female genitalia, despite being SRY+. There is also partial androgen insensitivity, which results in undervirilised males.

Between 1972 and 1996, genetic testing was conducted at the Olympics, not for XY chromosomes, but rather for the SRY gene.

The rate of SRY+ female athletes was 0.25%, and those affected appear to have been XY, with either AIS (complete or partial) or 5ARD.

Since 1996 the policy of genetic testing was abandoned, on the basis that testing was intrusive and there was no specific evidence of unfairness in terms of results.

In addition, intersex rights have become more generally recognised in terms of surgery performed on minors, and a recognition that individuals with disorders of sexual development have a right to make decisions for themselves.

So the position as of the last few years is that in general there is no right of sporting bodies to pronounce that an individual is ineligible on the basis of having an SRY gene, for example. This right of self-determination is being embraced by transgender women, who assert that their identity may be the result of 'hormone flushes in the womb' and similar things.

There are elite female athletes with XY chromosomes, SRY genes, internal testicles, and male skeletons, who appear to be androgen-sensitive, as a result of 5ARD and possibly other conditions, though I am not sure if any other specific conditions have been identified in elite female athletes besides 5ARD and AIS.

The case of complete androgen insensitivity is apparently uncontroversial, in that those affected have XY chromosomes and may tend towards larger stature due to genes found on the Y chromosomes, but they do not get respond to testosterone in the way that women or men do (women subject to testosterone doping over the long-term have been known to develop male gender identity).

However this leaves in general those who have been assigned female at birth but are partially sensitive to androgens, or completely sensitive, but have atypical genitals.

The right of intersex people with a genetic DSD to express their gender identity has resulted in a position that 'female' is those recognised by law as female, which in Western countries may include those who have gone through male puberty and have male skeletons, but that such people should undergo hormonal testosterone suppression to compete, unless completely androgen insensitive. Under normal circumstances women produce up to around 1.5 nmol/l of testosterone, and with polycystitic ovaries this may go up to around 3 nmol/l. Limits for testosterone have been set, respectively at 10 nmol/l, and 5 nmol/l, for the duration of the entire period an individual wishes to compete. The limit appears to be based on the testosterone level of women with ovaries that are producing excessive amounts of androgens (PCOS), who are XX females, even if subject to the virilising affects of testosterone.

Alternatively the limit could be seen as based on a statistical distribution of testosterone production in women, with limits being based on a certain number of standard deviations. However it is not necessarily the case that XY individuals with atypical (i.e. female) genital development will have testosterone production that fits into a normal distribution, as whereas female testosterone is around 0.5-1.5 nmol/l, male testosterone is 10-40nmol/l, so an individual who is producing male levels of testosterone due to the presence of (internal?) testicles is not necessarily pertinent to the statistical distribution of female testosterone levels.

The testosterone range of athletes competing in recent games has been published, and in the female 800m, there are one or more athletes with testosterone levels over 30 nmol/l.

It has been suggested that leading female 800m athletes are virilised, based on their appearance, stature (one athlete is 1.85m tall), and SRY+.

This has resulted in considerable time & effort being expended to attempt to prove specifically that these athletes have an unfair advantage, most recently with the IAAF introducing rules limiting testosterone levels for individuals with certain DSDs to 5 nmol/l (currently suspended pending review by the Court of Arbitration for Sport), but only in certain events.

The rules stating that testosterone levels are being restricted for individuals with DSDs, but only for specific events, runs contrary to intuition in that we know that in general, androgen-producing androgen-sensitive individuals (i.e. men) are very much stronger & faster than those producing limited androgens (women).

The problem, however is that there is a human rights implication in us simply declaring that 'a person who is SRY+ and who is androgen-sensitive is not female', in that these individuals may not be aware of their condition, despite amenorrhea, being from developing countries, and it is clearly humiliating to disqualify athletes as being 'not female', when they were not aware of their condition previously.

How do we prove, in general, that a certain condition, which is very rare, gives an unfair advantage? A certain genetic mutation may result in female genitals, for example, but it's hard to prove what other effect it has.

And how do we then handle the transgender people who will loudly insist that they also have a disorder of sexual development, and will happily cite papers to support their case?

OP posts:
MemoryOfSleep · 17/10/2018 23:36

It's an interesting topic to debate but if I were you, I'd post again in a less wordy manner! That was fairly impenetrable.

HomeStar · 17/10/2018 23:50

I think this would be a good discussion to have with intersex advocacy groups. They get left out of relevant discussions because TRAs shout all over them.

I will say that the female category is restricted for a reason, so if there’s a rare situation where the male/female boundary is legitimately blurred, then sports bodies should err on the side of excluding people from the female category. The men’s categories can become open categories with no harm done to men’s sports.

deepwatersolo · 17/10/2018 23:55

I do not understand OP‘s desire to discuss intersex and transpeople in one breath, as the title implies. Surely, the existence of intersex conditions can never justify that run-of-the-mill males compete in women‘s sports, courtesy some lipstick, estrogen shots or face feminization surgery?
I find this constant use of intersex people as human shields for the transagenda quite offputting, frankly.

NKFell · 18/10/2018 00:15

Male’s competing in female sport is wrong and unfair. This argument has nothing to do with intersex people and I’m really getting tired of hearing comparisons.

NKFell · 18/10/2018 00:15

Stupid apostrophe fail.

Coyoacan · 18/10/2018 00:26

I find this constant use of intersex people as human shields for the transagenda quite offputting, frankly.

Indeed

BettyDuMonde · 18/10/2018 00:35

Disorders of sexual development are classified as Male DSDs and Female DSDs so it’s really not a complicated answer.

Female-born people (including females with a DSD) get to compete in categories for females.

Male-born people (including males with a DSD) get to compete in categories for males.

In sports where the physiology of the human body isn’t paramount, the categories are already mixed (esquestrian sports).

Kokeshi123 · 18/10/2018 02:09

I don't think intersex and trans are the "same" but the issue of intersex people in sport does have to be addressed as well.

I have huge sympathy towards intersex athletes, but I'm also mindful of the fact that countries like China will stop at nothing to pile up gold medals.

Like, OK, let's imagine a situation where it becomes clear that the medals are all starting to go to intersex women. I can see a lot of countries basically making a strategic decision to ignore girls' sport in general (at least, things where testosterone is an advantage), focus their attention on scouting for talented intersex individuals, and encourage girls to go in for ornamental sports instead (synchronized swimming etc.) since these would be the only ones where XX women would have any realistic chance of women.

BettyDuMonde · 18/10/2018 02:50

Not all female DSDs give a physical advantage, in fact, some of them come with other debilitating, or even life threatening, conditions.

The numbers of female born babies with DSDs with the potential to increase sporting performance is so vanishingly small that they will statistically be unable to dominate women’s sport, no matter how much a competitive nation might desire it.

Male born people, however, are 49% of the global population, and the majority of them are bigger and stronger than most female born people.

MrsTerryPratchett · 18/10/2018 03:27

The wall of text implies you either know how to cut and paste OR you know a little about science. If the latter, why are conflating two participant group and therefore nullifying any conclusions?

QuietContraryMary · 18/10/2018 06:54

"The wall of text implies you either know how to cut and paste OR you know a little about science. If the latter, why are conflating two participant group and therefore nullifying any conclusions?"

I didn't cut and paste anything, and it's not that I am conflating.

The point as I see it is quite simple:

  1. at one time there was genetic testing for athletic eligibility - out of consideration, perhaps, for the fact that people might have, essentially, male skeletons & body types without realising it, as a result of a DSD, this was scrapped. Those who were assigned female at birth, are allowed to compete.
  2. related to the above, there will be some intersex individuals who are assigned male at birth and identify as female, and it's as I understand it, seen as a right of intersex people to determine their identity as adults, rather than coercively have the assigned.

NOW, out of an understandable desire to avoid forceably categorising people with complex intersex conditions, those involved with sport have stepped back to a lesser or greater degree from this and said 'those who are legally recognised as female can compete'.

it's not me that's conflated intersex and transgender, but rather the fact that sporting bodies have essentially abdicated their former role in adjudicating on sex that allows transgender people to use this just as intersex people do.

Many transgender people swear their condition is the result of hormones in the womb or whatever else.

OP posts:
QuietContraryMary · 18/10/2018 07:12

"Disorders of sexual development are classified as Male DSDs and Female DSDs so it’s really not a complicated answer."

Well it's not quite that simple, and I did give some examples in my OP. We know that individuals with 5-ARD may have genitals that appear female, but also have XY chromomosomes & male testosterone level.

See study here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23633205

Individuals with 5-ARD do not identify necessarily as female or male. This study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15844467 suggests that following female socialization from birth, a male gender identity may develop gradually from puberty, but it's not universal.

The question of why and how individuals develop male gender in these cases is not fully resolved. The athlete Mark Weston, who competed as Mary Weston in the 1920s, but later became Mark following a diagnosis of a DSD, probably 5ARD. From contemporary reports it is clear that the process of Mary becoming Mark was seen as a positive one in that society was highly patriarchal, and 'becoming a man' was seen as very positive.

This influence is discussed here in a more modern context: medium.com/sex-gender-history-of-medicine/factors-in-determining-sex-and-gender-in-cases-of-5-alpha-reductase-deficiency-c76b0995a531

In the case of the leading intersex athletes it seems that several live out traditionally male gender roles within their cultures, in terms of their non-sporting clothing, and their marriages to women.

Clearly it's not for us to assert that a person's gender role is male because they are tall, strong and are married to a woman, however we can note that whatever 'gender' means, in sporting terms there are hugely powerful financial incentives to assert female identity, regardless of whether personal gender identity is male.

OP posts:
littlecabbage · 18/10/2018 07:12

OP, are you basically saying this:

By relaxing the testing and potential disqualification of intersex people, there is nothing to stop any man from identifying as female and competing in female events? All they will need to do is argue that they are intersex if challenged, but no-one can insist on testing to prove this?

deepwatersolo · 18/10/2018 07:12

The condition of transwomen is the condition of the male body. Spare me this sillyness.

newmumwithquestions · 18/10/2018 07:26

I disagree with the flack the OP is getting here. I think it’s important to draw a line - there has to be one in sex segregated sport, otherwise it’s open to manipulation (as we know).

And it’s an argument trotted out by lots of those advocating trans rights that it’s not as simple as XY - and in that they’re right (though the numbers of intersex individuals are I believe very very small).

Annandale · 18/10/2018 07:32

It's an interesting one.

Like a pp, i would suggest that the male competition becomes open to all without genetic testing, and the female category to become xx only backed by testing organised by the athlete.

The decision that genetic testing is intrusive could be revisired now that the drug testing regime is so much greater in frequency and coverage.

QuietContraryMary · 18/10/2018 07:33

"By relaxing the testing and potential disqualification of intersex people, there is nothing to stop any man from identifying as female and competing in female events? All they will need to do is argue that they are intersex if challenged, but no-one can insist on testing to prove this?"

Well not exactly, but close. The point here is that eligibility is done on legal gender.

It is in typically obviously possible for a transgender person to be identified as one who grew up male, and may indeed have lived for 35 years or whatever as a man.

So in that sense there is not necessarily any doubt that a person is transgender.

The point however is that by declining to state that, say, 'only people who meet these criteria are female', which is something I believe was done out of the consideration for the small number of female athletes who were identified as intersex during competition and may have found this distressing/disruptive, etc., there aren't objective grounds on which we can say 'sorry mate, you're a bloke'.

And again, while DSDs are genetic, and hence objectively diagnosable, so you could from one side say 'sorry if you don't have a genetic intersex disorder you're not eligible', my perception is that transgender activists are working hard to create an objective scientific basis for THEIR conditions.

I believe there are NHS documents that state that transgender identity is a result of exposure to hormones in the womb. While I think this is not true, the fact is transscientists are creating transscience to say 'there are genes', 'this happened in the womb', all of which they use to muddy the waters and conflate between something fairly binary like 'this XX person has a SRY gene on one of their X chromosomes', to their claim, which is 'I'm transgender, it's real & innate & no debate'.

OP posts:
deepwatersolo · 18/10/2018 07:36

newmum I really cannot see, why the original birth certificate that states the sex observed at birth should not suffice when it comes to sports competitions. Even the overwhelming majority of intersex conditions are classified male and female within weeks via differential diagnosis. If some particular intersex condition merits special treatment in terms of sports, the intersex community surely will alert sports bodies and a line based on prototypical body performance/muscle density can be found for the particular diagnosed intersex condition.
The idea to use intersex conditions as an excuse to disregard biological sex, as observed at birth, altogether, when it comes to sports, is patently absurd.

Annandale · 18/10/2018 07:39

Eligibility is also done on hormone levels which are clearly politically manipulated. Just as paralympic disability groupings are constantly being argued about.

I think it should be for the open group to prove they are welcoming and reaching out to all. Xx people would be a specific group. Lack of testing is leading to suspicion and grumbles from xx people who believe they are being asked to compete against those with a y chromosome.

deepwatersolo · 18/10/2018 07:43

I have yet to see a study that differentiates between ,the gay brain‘ and ,the transwomen brain‘. But in any case, sports competitions are about body strength. It does not matter one iota how transwomen‘s brains look. They could all have a Barbie brain with a pink ribbon wrapped around it that is clearly visible in an MRT and it wouldn’t change a thing.

QuietContraryMary · 18/10/2018 07:53

And when you look at the specific of WHO has been affected by intersex testing it becomes even more fraught. Dutee Chand is 5'6", and it was determined that she does not have an advantage so can now compete, after previously being disqualified as intersex.

But what does it mean by 'does not have an advantage'? Indian people are not particularly tall on average, nor do they perform well in athletics, so objectively all we can say is that Dutee is not obviously larger, faster, or physically stronger than the leading female 100m athletes.

However on the 800m side we have a 1, 2, 3, of intersex athletes who are tall black Africans beating a white European field, and the sporting bodies are saying 'they do have an advantage'.

For me this doesn't quite make sense in that the same argument is employed by Rachel McKinnon in winning cycling championships 'Well I didn't win everything'.

That's not really the point.

Elite athletes are elite, intersex conditions compatible with competing as female in sport are rare. The world's fastest woman is further ahead of the average woman than the fastest athlete with a certain rare DSD is ahead of the average person with that DSD.

But again it will be argued that 'elite athletes are freaks of genetics anyway, WHY the genetics are what they are is irrelevant, and insisting on fertile XX women is discriminatory, etc.'.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/10/2018 07:55

What percentage of the population are intersex? This BTW you will note is a fixed number which is unchanging. What percentage of the population are can be men who decide in order to win medals might identify as women?

Now I think there are lots of problems with intersex people being able to compete freely in women's events and this has the capacity to take out the highest level of sport. I think it grossly unfair. However it still leaves some opportunity for women to compete in the mix. But when you allow self ID completely that destroys all sport for women.

There is a world of difference between us swimming saying self ID in swimming is fair game, no questions asked, screw the dignity of females and dealing with the intersex issue which is limited, medically indicated and creates dignity issues.

The conflation between the two is a travestry. It throws women under the bus.

MistressFunbox · 18/10/2018 08:03

Intersex is a developmental disorder. Perhaps there should be paraolympic categories for intersex athletes?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread