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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How ARE the sex-based exclusions currently applied?

6 replies

anunseemlylovefordustin · 15/10/2018 11:41

Let's skim over the fact that my phone tried to autocorrect that to 'sexy-based' Smile

Having stuck my peak-Transed head above the parapet recently, I'm getting a lot of 'but self ID won't actually make any difference to anything, your passport and your driving license can already say female without you having a GRC, so self ID will literally make no difference' comments. And I don't have a good counterargument! My particular area of interest is DV shelters (having spent a lot of time in them as a child).

Does anyone know how the rules on exemptions are currently practically applied, so that I can form some decent counter arguments that don't just rely on my gut feeling? I'm wondering if there's anyone here who is involved with a shelter that could shed some light? How does it currently work if you need to enforce that exemption against someone who, say, has a passport that says female but appears to be male?

OP posts:
MsBeaujangles · 15/10/2018 11:47

Passports and driving licenses do not entitle you to be considered, in the eyes of the law, to be female.
At the moment, in legal terms, everyone who is legally female are either natal females or natal males who have a diagnosis of GD and a panel have approved their GRC being issued.
Self ID would mean, in legal terms, females are natal females and any natal males who want a GRC.

UpstartCrow · 15/10/2018 11:50

Fair Play asked women who run and use domestic violence services how the loss of single sex services will affect them.
fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

Many shelters are already mixed sex, for 2 reasons. Some have been told to reserve a set number of spaces for men, or lose their funding. Others are too scared of being sued by trans people to turn them away. Even vexatious litigation costs them resources they can't afford to waste, and they can't guarantee their costs can be recovered if they win.

The problem is that the Equality Act states that trans people should be treated as if they are their aquired sex, and should only be excluded for a very good reason, on a case by case basis.
whereas is should be the other way round; women only spaces and services should be ring fenced and only allow natal males in in very exceptional circumstances and on a case by case basis.

PencilsInSpace · 15/10/2018 12:13

Case by case isn't in the EA itself it's in the statutory code written by EHRC under pressure from trans pressure groups.

13.60 - As stated at the beginning of this chapter, any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.

From the post consultation report:

vii. Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance.

Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

... and ...

e. Services, public functions and associations
• A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.

GenderApostate · 15/10/2018 12:27

I’ve been trying to find out how many orgs. actually use single Sex exemptions and apart from Freedom programme and Womens holiday Centre, there is no information available, not that I can see anyway.
I imagine that any group who are given public funds are under immense pressure to be inclusive.
I can’t tell you how much I admire Freedom programme for putting Women first.

foxyliz26 · 15/10/2018 12:28

“Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, providing it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim”.

Proportionate: It must be reasonable - in proportion, and of an appropriate size, extent, amount, or degree
Legitimate: It must be a legal aim i.e. not a spurious or false grievance.

In other words

  • those who are managing single sex spaces may refuse access to a trans person, so long as the response is reasonable and based in real facts and circumstances, and lawful. But that is a very high barrier to reach.

A Case Study
Trans woman AB has a Gender Recognition certificate. She is living with her child Ch, and a partner Z. Z owns the house they have all been living in for last year. AB has no personal resources or family to call upon.
After 12 months of repeated smaller incidents, the police have just rescued them AB+Ch from a particularly violent incident at the hands of Z. Turns out Z is a persistent serious abuser of partners and children, which AB did not know when she and Ch moved in with Z.
Police take AB+Ch to a local Women’s refuge, as there is no other emergency accommodation which can take in both a woman and a child.
AB has no personal resources (family or money) to call upon. Let’s assume AB is a kind, sensible helpful person.

Can the managers of the Women’s Refuge refuse to house them?
Yes - If they have no space.
Can they refuse to house them purely because AB is a trans woman?
I believe the ANSWER is NO in almost ALL circumstances.

Explanation
As AB has a Gender Recognition certificate, the Gender Recognition Act 2004 is quite clear. The relevant section in the Gender Recognition Act 2004 is:
Section 9. Subsection (1) Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).
Subsection (2) Subsection (1) does not affect things done, or events occurring, before the certificate is issued; but it does operate for the interpretation of enactments passed, and instruments and other documents made, before the certificate is issued (as well as those passed or made afterwards).
In other words, for all lawful purposes, AB is now a woman. Any exclusion because she has a medical history of transsexualism, would be discriminatory according to the provisions of the Equality Act 2010. It could never be a ‘legitimate’ exclusion (we don’t even need to consider the question of proportionality).

What if AB did not have a Gender Recognition certificate?
She could be excluded but ONLY if the exclusion is proportionate and legitimate.
The refuge manager must ascertain whether excluding AB is in proportion (i.e. of an appropriate size, extent, amount, or degree) and lawful.

The refuge manager couldn’t just ‘second guess’ what the residents thought about housing AB. Any conclusion reached must be based in real hard facts.

Clearly to get an answer to this question, the manager should
(a). Introduce AB (maybe informally e.g. have her sit in a waiting area through which people passed) and
(b) Ask the residents the question:

  1. Would inclusion of this woman, AB, and her child make you feel real and justifiable discomfort or fear?

If a resident(s) answer yes, then the refuge manager should ask;

  1. What are the reasons for your discomfort or fear?
The manager should then evaluate whether those reasons are real and justifiable. Only if they are, could the manager CONSIDER refusing AB+Ch a place in the refuge, but the reasons would have to be BOTH proportionate and lawful.

So the final evaluation might be:
Excluding AB+Ch might cause them some discomfort (e.g. a night in a police cell to protect them),
but against that: inclusion would seriously impact the mental health and wellbeing of resident(s) XXX

Then exclusion of AB+Ch could be proportionate. But it would also have to be legitimate.
e.g. AB+Ch will not come to harm, but resident(s) XXXX may experience serious but short-term distress,
i.e. Legitimacy comes from the wanting to cause the lesser of two evils.

But, what if excluding AB+Ch meant they would either have to return home and face a very violent man again, who has threatened to kill them, or alternatively spend the night on the freezing streets.
e. g. AB+Ch is highly likely to come to harm, but the resident(s) XXXX might experience serious but short-term distress;
In this case, the line is very fine – but I would think that excluding Ab+Ch is probably not legitimate, but that would be for a court to decide based on the balance of probabilities,

NOW - What if the reasons really are given are unreasonable and unjustifiable – and in fact any potential claim of distress really amounts to prejudicial attitudes.
That would call into question the legitimacy of any exclusion of AB+Ch,
The manager should then over-ride that/those resident(s) who makes the objection.
The manager should consider counsel the resident(s) explaining the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 to them. If the residents still strongly object, then consideration should be given to whether it would be best to exclude them, rather than AC+Ch, as it would be difficult to claim that prejudice was the basis of a legitimate action.

Conclusion
What Ministers are doing is using fudge words (as indeed they are used in the directive and in the Equality Act 2010), because no one really wants to say ‘No’ to either side.

anunseemlylovefordustin · 15/10/2018 17:19

Thank you for such comprehensive responses! Now to try and work out what I want to say to my friends :)

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