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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please email Woman's Hour today!

98 replies

R0wantrees · 15/10/2018 11:21

Women's Hour have finally opened discussion to the self-id gender 'debate' and will be discussing this tomorrow.

I know many have been so frustrated, angry, concerned etc by the failure.

The opportunity now exists to raise the issues which impact on women.

Hopefully many will respond

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OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2018 10:12

Have emailed and listening now.
Let's hope for a balanced, unbiased discussion x

sashh · 16/10/2018 10:27

I'm liking the teacher.

sashh · 16/10/2018 10:28

We get a name check!

doublethink · 16/10/2018 10:43

How did it go??

sashh · 16/10/2018 10:46

No too bad.

There was a trans (mtf) teacher who basically said self id is a bad idea and that she functions on trust.

Stonewall rep gave the usual, Irish woman said they had no problems but another contributor cited some.

sashh · 16/10/2018 10:47

They touched on Karen White, only read one email and 1 tweet

doublethink · 16/10/2018 10:50

Was someone from FPFW on?

ToeToToe · 16/10/2018 10:56

Nic Williams from FPFW was on, and Debbie Hayton and gender critical trans woman.

Both were very clear, and got points across really well.

Debbie made some excellent points from a TW's perspective.

ToeToToe · 16/10/2018 11:01

Bex Stinson from Stonewall was on, Natalie an LGBT lawyer - both did the usual "this will not affect women at all" - and an Irish "intersectional feminist" who claimed there were no problems in Ireland at all.

Until, that is, Nic W raised some issues in Ireland, plus the prison service in Ireland still segregates by biological sex - so Karen White could never happen in Ireland - then Irish feminist fudged and waffled a lot.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/10/2018 11:01

Debbie Hayton is really good! Wonderful!

If we could just have her draft the new law... or rather, abolish the existing law as it seems to be unnecessary as she said, both she and Stonewall's Bex live without a GRC and are accepted as women in their every day lives. Job done, no paperwork required!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/10/2018 11:02

Sorry, I'm only just listening to it... Irish perspective yet to come!

Non binary about to be defined!

R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 11:05

Keep emailing.

Woman's Hour needs to hear from women about their concerns.

There are many.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/10/2018 11:20

Ooh! Not sure. Waiting for the podcast and all those emails and tweets...

R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 13:23

Background to legal expert

Please email Woman's Hour today!
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CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/10/2018 13:32

Ah! That explains a lot. She did seem t be wilfully dense, now I know why?

We know the EA2010 won't be changed.

We know that it is the reality of 'woman' that is being changed

She knows that too. But when you start from the premise that some men are women then you won't ever make sense ever again!

R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 13:47

Strange that Woman's Hour & Irish journalist and feminist not up to speed:

The Irish Question
In the debate around proposals to change to self-identification under the GRA, people often refer to the other countries where this has been adopted “with no problems”. In particular, Ireland is cited as a good example.

However, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the way Irish equality law works and a lack of knowledge of the legal exceptions and caveats which mean Ireland does not, in fact or practice, have a simple self-declaratory system. To claim it does misrepresents the situation there.

The law was changed in 2015 and was due for an audit this Summer. No audit of its impact has yet been published.

The Irish law is outlined here and must be considered in its interplay with other different Irish statutes. (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

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R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 13:50

There was an Irish current court case shared last week where the right to protected identity was being used to challenge validity of a court summons in the birth name /sex.

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ToeToToe · 16/10/2018 13:52

That Lawyer woman was lying and obfuscating.

She (and Stonewall) knows damn well that self ID will mean any man can be legally treated treated as a woman - and thus the exemptions under the EA will not be able to be enforced.

It's what they want. TWAW, after all.

Shami Chakrobarti said (yesterday I think) that she believes in self ID and that Karen White should be in the female estate. Shami blames the prison service for failing to protect the other prisoners. "Gender" is irrelevant, says she - and drew the analogy that you wouldn't put a white racist in a cell with a black man.

So I wonder why do we have women's prisons in the first place?? Why not just chuck 'em all in with the men.

R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 13:54

"An Irish Woman speaks
First of all, thank you so much to A Woman’s Place UK for giving me the chance to talk about this. I feel like I am going mad. I’m Irish and I live in Ireland. We introduced self ID in 2015. At the time, I was supportive of it, because I believed what I was told: that this had no implications for women; that it would only benefit trans people.

I didn’t think about it again until I saw men I know on Twitter, bullying and insulting women that they called ‘terfs’. I assumed that the women were in the wrong. But I don’t think you persuade anyone by insulting them, so I went on to some website or other to find out what they really thought, so I could engage with their arguments properly. I found a list of questions written by a gender critical feminist: What is a woman? What is gender identity?

I believe that a woman is an adult human female. I don’t have any gender identity that is separate from that fact: I experience being a woman because I have a female body and because that female body means that society treats me in a particular way. So in what way did I believe that trans women were women?

I listened to and read what a lot of trans people were saying in the hope of finding out what a gender identity was, but it always came down to stereotypes. Then I read about what was meant by ‘cis’, and I resented it. Not because I hate trans people, but because I do not identify with society’s idea of women, I have always been disgusted by it.

I saw people who were, in every practical sense of the word, men, say that they were women purely because they said so. And I started worrying what this meant in practical terms.

A while ago I was in my local swimming pool, and a man swam across the pool from the men’s rooms and entered the women’s changing rooms. I was there on my own. I ran to get the gym staff and they got him to leave. I spent the next few hours afraid he would spot me and recognise me as the woman who had got him thrown out.

But now, I don’t know if I could get him removed. I don’t know what the law means, and nobody will tell me. I know that a barber was sued because he mistook a trans man for a woman. When I write to TDs (Teachtaí Dála – members of the Irish parliament) they ignore me. I’ve stopped using the pool and the gym.

The worst thing is, I can’t talk openly about any of this. The same men who say ‘When women tell you about sexual assault, listen to them’, will call me a terf and say I should be punched if I say I’m afraid of male people when I’m vulnerable and there’s nobody else around. In fact, even if I say trans women are biologically male, I will be accused of hate speech." (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

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TeenTimesTwo · 16/10/2018 15:35

I've emailed in saying that practical issues happening now weren't aired and that to inform the wider audience they need to cover them before the end of the consultation.

I suggested they have another programme covering things already happening now in anticipation of the act, and related issues.

R0wantrees · 16/10/2018 18:38

now available on soundcloud:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0000qpk

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hackmum · 16/10/2018 20:23

So Natalie Gamble is a lawyer specialising in fertility law, not in equality law?

Why couldn't they have asked a specialist in equality law, or even human rights law? Someone who actually knows what the fuck they're talking about?

cansu · 16/10/2018 20:29

I very rarely get wound up listening to the radio but I was astonished that the irish journalist actually seemed to have no idea what she was talking about. The sum of her contribution was that she hadn't heard of any problems! How informative. She also did not seem to really understand the law and had to be corrected by someone on the panel. I thought the trans woman teacher seemed to grasp the issues and spoke a lot of sense.

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