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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Trans scientists

43 replies

spannablue · 14/10/2018 09:29

In another thread I said I'd met some trans scientists. People were very sceptical that such people exist, so here's a link to an article about Ben Barres
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-08964-1

And one on Michelle Steele
lgbtstem.wordpress.com/2018/10/08/an-interview-with-michelle-steele/

OP posts:

PersonWithAVulva · 14/10/2018 16:09

What an odd thread, is there really even one poster on here that thinks trans people cannot be scientists? I can well imagine one of the goady TRAs joining up just to post some nonsense like that though, so they can screenshot and post their own transphobia on twitter as proof of how transphobic feminists are, like usual.

Was the research paper ever found where an intersex condition exists where women grow penises? I am sure this was you who said this? If I am wrong, apologies, I know 2 posters with spanner ion the name so could have been the other. Was looking forward to that one..alas I did thin k it was utter bollocks.

Barracker · 14/10/2018 16:11

People hold beliefs that are not supported by fact in every walk of life. Science is no exception.

Some people genuinely feel they are magical. Perhaps they may call themselves "MagicalPeople".

Accepting that People-Who-Call-Themselves-Magical exist is not equivalent to agreeing that being Magical is a valid thing.
Nor is it equivalent to hatred of so-called MagicalPeople.
Noting that the people who call themselves MagicalPeople have some serious comorbidities is possible, without affirming the belief that people really can be magical.
And if I decline to use the term MagicalPeople it is because I consider the term is a misnomer.
Not only that, it's perfectly reasonable to state "No person really is magical".
And it's also reasonable to state "magic isn't real".
It's not that I'm "anti-magic".
It's not possible to be 'anti' a concept you think doesn't even exist.

All of which is pretty much my position on trans.

ABitCrapper · 14/10/2018 16:46

Well quite.
I have a friend who says she is a witch, and will do spells and incantations.

I do not believe in magic. I acknowledge that she calls herself a witch and respect that.

However, when explaining this to my young children (who got scared), people are not really witches, they just think they are. They can't really do magic, they just think they can.

People are transgender. A transwomen may believe she has changed sex and is now a women....

starzig · 14/10/2018 17:37

You get trans people in a variety of jobs. Any specific reason that you would think that you wouldn't get a trans scientist?

starzig · 14/10/2018 17:39

Being trans is a valid thing. Because you don't like it or dont want a penis in the female toilets does not make it not valid.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/10/2018 17:49

Debbie Hayton is, of course, a physics teacher. Debbie is a transexual who knows full well that people can't actually change sex so is male. Suffering from dysphoria doesn't automatically render people irrational.

AspieAndProud · 14/10/2018 18:04

Being trans is a valid thing. Because you don't like it or dont want a penis in the female toilets does not make it not valid.

What does ‘valid’ mean in this context? It normally refers to a point or line in an argument. How is a person ‘valid’?

starzig · 14/10/2018 18:27

Agree. What do you mean OP?

MIdgebabe · 14/10/2018 18:33

It’s the “or” statement in the ops last post that is off

People might not want a penis in the ladies , is true.
But I think distinct from accept8ng that trans people exist.

Why must I accept a penis in the ladies? Why are some transwomen forcing women to accept penis in the ladies? As a woman who has had a penis forced upon her, I find it very concerning. ( and apologies to those transwomen who would never dream of forcing a penis in front of anyone. )

Barracker · 14/10/2018 18:39

Being trans is a valid thing

How so?

Believing in something irrational won't make it true, or valid.

deepwatersolo · 14/10/2018 19:13

Ah, spannablue up to her old tricks of deconstructing reality. Nobody doubted on said thread that transscientists do not exist, Anne Lawrence for example is an autogynophilic transwomen doing research on autogynephilia.

The point was that we doubted that in this 8 person strategy meeting on the GRA there was any scientist present, given that you are so unfamiliar with science that you talk about the existence of xx women with penises and cannot understand the role of statistics in demonstrating male violence and the role of male violence in shaping society.

Postmodernists may call your Type of behaviour de- and reconstructing reality, everyone else knows it rhymes with ‚pants on fire‘.

deepwatersolo · 14/10/2018 19:21

Ironically, ‚valid‘ is defined as ‚rooted in reality‘, which in turn means that feelings and even whole identities are in fact not valid. Derrick Jenssen has something on YouTube up about this.

ParentsOfSummer · 14/10/2018 19:38

The point is, it is possible to be a scientist and to accept that being trans is a valid thing.

Absolutely right! Spot on!

But what's being a scientist got to do with anything? They practice science and have a good grounding in science... But we're talking about a different subject which has almost nothing to do with science.

How could a scientist study whether it is a valid thing in a double blind study?

ArcheryAnnie · 14/10/2018 20:19

The point is, it is possible to be a scientist and to accept that being trans is a valid thing.

The point is, it's possible to be a scientist - even a very clever scientist in one of the most celebrated science experiments of the 21st century - and still believe that women are inferior and that male-bodied people are superior. Just ask Professor Alessandro Strumia from CERN. He's still wrong, and he's still a dick.

And - in a discussion about science - you haven't defined your terms. What do you mean by "valid"? What do you mean by "trans"? We all know people who identify as trans exist. Where the disagreement comes is that lots of us also know that it's not possible to change sex, and that it actively harms people with dysphoria to pretend it does.

PineappleSunrise · 14/10/2018 20:30

Deepwatersolo, I'd also picked up on spanna's strawman. It's interesting that it's taken a WHOLE separate thread to make an argument against a point that no-one actually made.

boatyardblues · 14/10/2018 20:31

Thanks Lang. We shouldn't engage, it's like teaching kids, you have to patiently answer many a silly question.

I’m so glad you did engage with the OP, fellow MNers, because I realky enjoyed the dinosaur bones/devil anecdote. I’ll be sharing it with my 10 year old because we were having a chat about young Earth creationist beliefs out on our walk earlier. He’ll love this anecdote.

waterlego6064 · 14/10/2018 20:47

It’s at times like this that I ask myself: ‘What would Bunbury say?’

deepwatersolo · 14/10/2018 20:51

Deepwatersolo, I'd also picked up on spanna's strawman. It's interesting that it's taken a WHOLE separate thread to make an argument against a point that no-one actually made.

Yeah, yesterday I was still not quite sure, this now has it made clear what to think of OPs 'style'.

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