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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What does it mean to ‘identify’ as a woman?

47 replies

SmallButFierce · 12/10/2018 12:16

Sorry if this seems too much like a thread about a thread, it was a point that interested me on a thread I commented on in AIBU (which unfortunately got a bit derailed and filled up too quickly!).

I know that I am a woman but I really can’t say that I identify with any sort of intrinsic feeling of ‘woman-ness’. I see my own ‘gender identity’ as being pretty neutral - I see myself as being a mix of attributes that are typically seen as being male or female (eg strong-willed, logical, protector vs caring, sensitive, teacher).

So I’m interested in the concept of ‘feeling’ like a woman, without reference to the physical aspects of actually being a woman. What is this internal feeling of ‘being a woman’? Can you really explain it without falling back on socially determined gender stereotypes?

From the AIBU thread two things came up - first that you can ‘feel like a woman’ if your mental representation of your body is female and aligns with the physical reality of your (female) body. The second one that came up was that you can feel like a woman if you are mentally aligned with the stereotypical female gender role.

I don’t really feel that explains what it means to feel like a woman - yes I am physically female and my mental representation of myself matches that and, especially now I’m a mother, I probably do fit quite a stereotypically female role socially - that’s not really a free choice though and I do find these type of stereotypes really frustrating. I have two young sons and I feel similarly that the expectations of them as males are really restrictive (and no doubt even worse for young girls).

It was an interesting discussion anyway (and not just as an adjunct to the trans debate). Of course men and women are different, I just don’t think that ‘identifying’ with gender stereotypes encapsulates this at all, instead it just seems incredibly regressive and is not something I really think needs encouraging.

OP posts:
ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/10/2018 12:26

Great questions, and ones I've asked often and not had anything near a good answer to.
What is this woman feeling? All I see is sexist stereotypes.

I am continually aghast that people are making laws utterly devoid of clearly articulated meaning. Aghast and really fucking angry.

VickyEadie · 12/10/2018 12:28

It means whatever the men say it means - no debate. Apparently.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 12:29

Fuck all.

Sorry to be brief!

deepwatersolo · 12/10/2018 12:32

Ah, I can't find it but I believe Lisa Muggeridge in some video said something along the lines of: if somebody says they 'identify as' you can count on it being a false identity, or so.

Barracker · 12/10/2018 12:40

"identify as" means "say".

There's literally nothing else to it, and no reason we should consider a person using it to be 'saying' the truth when all facts demonstrate the opposite is true.

Actually the majority of people using the words 'identify as' tend to be the opposite of what they are claiming, in my experience.

misscockerspaniel · 12/10/2018 12:46

Judging from photos, it means wearing a frock and putting your hair in a ponytail. Which means that if you have short hair and wear trousers.... Grin

terryleather · 12/10/2018 12:49

Identify as as far as I can see means am not actually that thing/sex/race but fuck you bigot I will damn well force you to treat me as such!!!!

^
^

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 12:49

I don’t know is the answer.

I’m a woman, and I know that I’m a woman but I can’t explain why I know that beyond that it’s what I am.

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 12/10/2018 12:51

Yep. It means "I say I'm a woman".

Most people (esp women I think) are non binary or whatever because most of us do things that are 'masculine' as well as feminine.

I made a list the other day and I am at least equal parts 'male' and 'female'. A lot of my interests/hobbies are more masculine and I don't wear make up or do my nails. I have no interest in handbags or looking pretty.

I have a couple of mates who call me 'geezer bird' - which I think is a probably just a really un-pc of recognising that fact...

It's just a ridiculous nonsense.

If men want to present definitely then fair enough and good for them. But it does not make them women.

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 12/10/2018 12:51
  • femininely
LagerthaTheShieldMaiden · 12/10/2018 12:51

There isn't a way to answer this without relying on stereotypes, in my opinion. It all seems to be about lipstick and pink dresses, or just taking the word of men with beards.

MagicMix · 12/10/2018 12:54

It doesn't make any sense and this is exactly the point. It is supposed to confuse people so that they just go, 'Oh, OK then' and think that the problem is with them.

The problem isn't with you. There is nothing you are failing to 'get' here.

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 12:55

woman/man aren't identities, they are factual, objective realities, and it is on that basis, and that basis alone, that laws should be made.

AlexaShutUp · 12/10/2018 13:04

For me, feeling like a woman relates to the lived experience of having a female body. It's about sex, not stereotypes.

numptynuts · 12/10/2018 13:06

Identify AS should be identify WITH. But sadly that is the complete opposite of what is happening.

ThePrincipal · 12/10/2018 13:06

Swap ‘identify’ with ‘say’ or ‘declare myself’ .....to other people.

Datun · 12/10/2018 13:13

SmallButFierce

There is probably, on FWR, a general feeling that gender is stereotypes, and is damaging. You're starting from an initial premise that discounts that one can feel like a woman unless it's physical.

Interestingly, Magdalen Burns did a video quite a while back where she listed all the organisations who might be interested in the definition of gender. Like WHO and including many trans groups like WPATH etc.

They all defined it as socially imposed roles/behaviours. Or words to that effect. There was no definition that was synonymous with the ones transactivists make. (Because there's nothing to support that).

Whether there is something our brain that would tell us if we are male or female, if we really had no way of actually knowing, remains to be seen.

But I don't see how. Or what it would entail. Or even why it would matter, to be honest.

But you notice, from the other thread, that people can't, or won't, actually describe the feeling of being a woman. Because it can be so swiftly challenged.

I tried my best to highlight that.

Allycumpooster · 12/10/2018 13:25

I don’t think it makes any sense either. I am a woman, I like being a woman and I have no desire to be a man. But I don’t feel that my identity is as a woman. I probably identify more as my career than my sex or gender.

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 12/10/2018 14:31

I probably identify more as my career than my sex or gender

This is interesting. I'd identify myself as my career and a couple of my hobbies.

Eg I'm a part time musician and play bass guitar in a couple of bands. If someone asked me to describe myself, I think i'd say "bassist" before I said "woman"...

Woman is 'just' what I am.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 14:43

I identify as a Catholic. It's chosen, and it's a deeply held belief.

I do not identify as a woman. I don't identify as brown eyed. I don't identify as white. These things are not things I have chosen, they are simple facts of my existence.

I can tell you what it feels like to identify as a Catholic because I have a frame of comparison from when I was not a Catholic. I can't tell you what it feels like to identify as a brown eyed human, because I have no useful point of comparison, it is simply a physically demonstrable fact about me that has been the case since birth.

Fearandsurprise · 12/10/2018 14:49

Ally Wow, great observation.
I identify as an engineer more than I identify as a particular sex (or gender). And I have the paperwork to prove that I am an engineer.

GraceTheDisgrace · 12/10/2018 15:03

I've always read 'identify as' as 'identify as if I were'. So if you're a woman, you wouldn't identify as if you were a woman, because you are one. If you're a transwoman, you would apparently identify as if you were a woman for whatever purposes (like when someone asks you what you are).

As a woman, there's nothing to 'identify as if I were' because I am already. It's just a material fact. The idea that I can 'identify as' something includes the idea that I can also 'not identify as' that thing, and that there's a difference. The problem is that it in the case of sex, there is no difference. Because regardless of what I identify as, I remain a woman.

I think it is entirely meaningless.

PierreBezukov · 12/10/2018 15:06

It is meaningless

You either are or aren't a woman. That's it.

VickyEadie · 12/10/2018 15:07

GraceTheDisgrace

Indeed. And it always comes down to stereotypes with the 'identify as' people, doesn't it? And never, ever, not once to 'I've realised that women are massively oppressed because of their sex and I understand entirely what they're saying...'

GraceTheDisgrace · 12/10/2018 17:10

VickyEadie, I think if someone were able to make that leap, "identify with" could have real meaning. In the sense of "feel empathy toward". But as long as we're stuck with "identify as" instead of "identify with", we're not going to get there.