People who don't realise they are "T**rfs"

[Namechangingoncemore]

Without being too specific I am involved in gender critical feminism in an environment where there is now a lot of "anti-T**rf" rhetoric (ramped up by the GRA consultation etc). This is mainly being led by men but with women supporting it.

Now there are definitely some idiots who swallow the whole ideology hook, line and sinker (and men who just love that it offers them carte-blanche to attack women) but within my circle I'm seeing people who obviously don't believe it all but are still going along with it.

For example, I post gender critical stuff on my Facebook page - I get a few likes, no response off most people but never any negative comments - but then I've had several people come up to me personally afterwards and start talking about their concerns around trans issues. There have also been situations where someone has tentatively raised the issue and (although everyone is obviously very cautious about what they say) several people have agreed that they have concerns.

Examples of the kind of stuff they have said:

• That the whole male/female brain thing is nonsense
• That putting males in women's prisons/refuges etc is worrying
• That they are concerned that gender-non-conforming children are being encouraged to transition
• That they have seen lesbians being criticised because their sexual orientation doesn't include people with penises and that they think this criticism is wrong.

I don't think all these people have fully developed gender critical views but they all obviously find some aspects of what is going on concerning.

And yet some of these same people are (at least ostensibly) supporting "anti-T**f" stuff. Some of it has been in situations where it is difficult not to agree and you would potentially put yourself at risk for not going along with it - but sometimes it isn't.

E.g. a good friend of mine who has raised a couple of concerns about trans stuff with me in real life (in response to stuff I've posted in Facebook) has 'liked' some "anti-T**rf" stuff on Facebook.

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a straight woman who is getting very involved in the LGBT community, regards herself as an ally, and was going to take part in an LWithTheT/Stand By Your Trans event (ie an event in response to and criticising lesbians protesting the cotton ceiling). I explained to her what the cotton ceiling was and she agreed that it was wrong to criticise lesbians for not having sex with people with penises - but she was still going to take part in the event to 'show her support for trans people and take a stand against the anti-trans people' (ie the lesbians who were objecting to cotton ceiling rhetoric!)

I don't really know if there is a point to this post except that this is something I'm seeing all around me and the transactivists have built up such a picture of the evil T*rfs that people don't recognise an evil T*rf when they are friends with one and when they are expressing the same views themselves. And yet they kind of know that their views aren't allowed because they approach me personally to discuss it - rather than respond publicly on Facebook - and any conversations take place in very hushed, cautious tones.

Is anyone else experiencing the same and how do you deal with it? Some people are talking about protesting/attacking our local radfem group (which I attend) in a couple of weeks time. I don't know if any of my friends will actually go to the protest (the meeting's being billed as an "anti-trans hate group meeting" so while I've mentioned my involvement in this group to a couple of friends, they won't have put two and two together - until we potentially come face-to-face at the protest - at which point they will realise I'm the evil Trf they've been warned about who holds views which they already fully know about*.

I think it’s complicated by the fact there ARE actual “transphobic” bullies. By calling transphobia everywhere TRAs have really cried wolf. But that doesn’t mean wolfs don’t exist.
I think it’s omportant that society is not “trans exclusionary”. Some women only spaces should be sex segregated and feminism shouldn’t have to centre trans experience but that doesn’t mean women can’t support trans individuals against harassment in the street and discrimination in employment.

Tribalism, I think. The AWAs have been remarkably successful in painting this as a progressive Vs nasty right wing issue, and in our society it takes ovaries of solid rock to step aside from group think.

Only the incredibly vacuous or craven, or malicious person fails to understand the concerns about safeguarding and boundaries, especially one to one, but to step out and be vocal among people whom you want to think well of you is a whole other step.

I'm fairly well known among my friends as being very outspoken and opinionated, and even I have trouble sticking my head above the parapet on this. I think persistence and consistency is the only move forward.

All women only places should be sex segregated or they’re not women only places. The clue’s In the name.

What does AWA stand for? I keep seeing it on here.

I think possibly the most depressing aspect of this is that it's opened my eyes to the way in which many people, even many clever people, score low on critical thinking and political awareness. Just yesterday I had a conversation with a formerly right-on woman, a trades unionist who'd call herself a feminist. She was telling me about a transgirl who is a friend of her daughter. 'She's just born in the wrong body,' she said to me over and over again. When I questioned whether anyone could be born in the wrong body she said 'Well of course you can, it's like being born with a toe or a finger missing.' Really?

It’s transexclusionary to exclude transwomen from areas where you would allow other men.

It is transphobic to deny transwomen rights you would respect with regard other men.

You are not denying someone ‘human rights’ by allowing them the same rights that every other member of their sex has.

I explained to her what the cotton ceiling was and she agreed that it was wrong to criticise lesbians for not having sex with people with penises - but she was still going to take part in the event to 'show her support for trans people and take a stand against the anti-trans people' (ie the lesbians who were objecting to cotton ceiling rhetoric!)

I wonder how many pills she needs to take per day to manage the headaches that level of cognitive dissonance would produce.

Re the lesbian stuff: I don’t think most straight people even realise it’s happening, and when I tell them they think it’s just the odd extremist. It’s not even the odd one though, they’re coming in all over, from all angles. All the organised lesbian groups have been infiltrated, and it’s very hostile for GC people. Also the thing I don’t think understand about the lesbian community is that it’s very small, One male is enough to completely destabilise the whole thing, and there aren’t enough of us to fight back as opinion is split and speaking up is like heresy. Basically it’s put up or stay away, which leaves us with nowhere to go, and being a lesbian in a heterosexual world can be isolating. We’re being cast out of our own community.

I actually have a draft of a post that is exceedingly similar to this. But I can't seem to find the right words to explain how baffling it is to see people agree that so many of the demands are 100% unacceptable, while at the same time nodding along to things that directly contradict those demands.

It is hypocritical, but the hypocrites are not intentionally being hypocritical, so I don't want to write them off in that way. I just want them to see ALL the issues next to each other and what a huge mess of contradiction it is and open up the discussion.

Namechangingoncemore
AWA = anti women activists.
People who are actively working to remove womens se based rights.

So not American Wrestling Association then? I did wonder about the relevance!

There's wrestling going on for sure....

she was still going to take part in the event to 'show her support for trans people and take a stand against the anti-trans people' (ie the lesbians who were objecting to cotton ceiling rhetoric!)

Don't waste your time discussing anything with her, you're just shovelling shit against the tide

God I wish I had daughters so I could bring them up not to be conditioned to take shit like this I’m sure that some of this is happening because women are conditioned to be reasonable and accommodating and not selfish boors. How are we ever going to ‘win’ when ‘women’ with male conditioning can waltz in like this and take over instantly. Do we all have to start behaving boorishly, selfishly, and trampling over all we see as well.?
I can’t see how this is all going to end

Ive saud this before, but this is why I hate the media portraying it as just "feminists" having an issue and not the truth that many PEOPLE are worried. It's othering and makes it look like a small minority of haters who are worried instead of normal people.

This is a very interesting point, OP. What do most of us face if we stick our head above the parapet? At the extreme end, loss of employment, physical violence, social shunning. For me (not working) maybe some people deciding not to bother with me any more, maybe violence if the TRAs tracked me down. But not much actually. And still I find it hard to do.

So how would I behave if something monstrous was going on, like if those tall chimneys I can see from my house started belching out smoke again? But this time not part of an industrial scene, but part of a genocide. Groups of people disappearing, then lots of smoke. What would I do? We know most of us think we would definitely stand up and be counted in such circumstances as the holocaust, but the evidence shows we don't. We care about ourselves, protect ourselves. It takes truly exceptional people to stand up to this, risking their lives on a daily basis. Which we aren't doing, of course. We risk lesser punishments but still we find it difficult to stand up and be counted. I am disappointed by my own cowardice in this.

I think it’s complicated by the fact there ARE actual “transphobic” bullies. By calling transphobia everywhere TRAs have really cried wolf. But that doesn’t mean wolfs don’t exist.
I think it’s omportant that society is not “trans exclusionary”. Some women only spaces should be sex segregated and feminism shouldn’t have to centre trans experience but that doesn’t mean women can’t support trans individuals against harassment in the street and discrimination in employment.

Museumum I agree with you here. But we have a situation where your opinion 'Some women only spaces should be sex segregated and feminism shouldn’t have to centre trans experience' is positioned as phobic and bigoted. And the weird situation the OP has outlined is really helping to maintain that situation.

Ancientlights even if we can't out ourselves there is lots we can do anonymously or privately.

but that doesn’t mean women can’t support trans individuals against harassment in the street

Do we support women against harrassment in the street, or are we afraid because we're women and not as strong as the harrassers? I don't know any woman who'd face down men harrassing her because of fear of physical violence, so why should we be expected to face down men for transwomen? It makes no sense.

In some ways, the whole "TRF" debacle is good because the people who are curious enough to hear what these women are saying often will end up agreeing with them, or they will find themselves in a situation where they say something like "lesbians don't do dick" and be called a "TRF," and then need to go seek out the other witches.
The problem is that now people are buying in to the propaganda that all women with opinions (some of which even people like India Willoughby share!) are as bad as the Nazis.
I honestly think pretty much everyone is a little bit "T*RFy". The vast majority of people will draw a line somewhere. Only the really hardcore trans activists truly believe in the ideas they espouse. Peak-transing takes a while, but once you start on the journey, it's a one-way track.
I don't think that helps you, OP, but you have my sympathy. This is why I actively avoid the kinds of circles where such vitriol against women would be spouted. And you're right, we really need to get the liberal feminists to get their principles in order, and stop trying to tear down other women by joining in with using aggressive tactics.