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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If White had pleaded not guilty...

22 replies

speakingwoman · 11/10/2018 22:42

Have I got this right?

You are locked up in jail. White assaults you but denies it.

At the trial, would you be forced during your cross examination to refer to White as “she” because White, a legal man, would prefer that?

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 11/10/2018 23:04

I have absolutely no doubt that a court would have insisted on White being referred to as 'she' by any victim giving evidence.

Just as Maria was while recounting her assault during the case of Tara Wood, and with reproaches and a penalty for failing to do this sufficiently well by the standards of the judge.

KatVonGulag · 11/10/2018 23:07

I hate this rapist piece of shit more than I can put into words. Fuck this.

Women can not rape. We don't fucking have penises

Fucksgiven · 11/10/2018 23:10

Its not a fucking woman! It's for a fucking cock which it uses for violence (respectful non gendered pronouns usex)

IdahoCrow · 11/10/2018 23:11

I guess witnesses will have to go with 'the defendant said ...' and 'the defendant did ...'

Maybe ' that person charged with assaulting me came up behind me and ...'

Or just 'they'.

UpstartCrow · 11/10/2018 23:12

That has already happened in at least one trial; I knew of another involving a rape, but haven't been able to find it on google.

Its also against the law as its in breach of The Equality Act.

LangCleg · 11/10/2018 23:19

Current Bench Book:

It is important to respect a person’s gender identity by using appropriate terms of address, names and pronouns. Everyone is entitled to respect for their gender identity, private life and personal dignity.

‘Deadnaming’ is a term used where a transgender person, in the course of transitioning or having transitioned, is called by their birth name, or when their birth name is otherwise referred to, instead of their chosen name. This is highly disrespectful.

Showing respect for a person’s gender identity includes using appropriate terms of address (Mr, Mrs, Ms), pronouns (he/she) and possessives (his/her). Nonbinary people may prefer to be referred to in gender-neutral terms (eg Mx, they, their). Whilst gender-neutral terminology is not yet mainstream, this should be accommodated wherever possible.

If in any doubt, it is best to ask a person how they would like to be addressed and what pronoun they would prefer you to use. If there is a question about how a person would like to be addressed, this will usually be dealt with before they come into the courtroom, and you will be advised accordingly.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/equal-treatment-bench-book-february-v6-2018.pdf

IdahoCrow · 11/10/2018 23:23

Fucking pathetic bench book entry, considering Justice Lady Hale's statement and the Supreme Court's ruling re ECHR article 10 on freedom of expression and freedom not to say things one does not in conscience agree with.

Redkeyboard · 11/10/2018 23:42

No. I would not lie under oath. I couldn’t do it.

deepwatersolo · 11/10/2018 23:48

Nobody should be forced to use any pronouns. But if there is a legal basis for forcing people to use certain pronouns, then, surely, this can only be done on the basis of legal sex?

Badgerthebodger · 11/10/2018 23:56

I completely and utterly agree that White is a rapist piece of shit BUT

As a wise poster on another thread pointed out, White is a “she”. To refer to White as a “he” would buy into the TRA no true transwoman argument, that anyone who commits these disgusting crimes by masquerading as trans cannot possibly be trans. Let them have White. If you can be a “she” because you say so, that’s going to include any number of disgusting abusers. I’m not having it that someone is supposed to be able to tell the difference between a genuine trans person and someone who is abusing the system for nefarious means. Nobody can possibly do that. So, if they’re in favour of self-ID I want it to be completely accepted AT ALL LEVELS. No exceptions. Just like they want. Including the Karen Whites of the world.

UpstartCrow · 12/10/2018 00:02

Absolutely.

deepwatersolo · 12/10/2018 00:04

Badger I agree with you that we should not buy into the ‚no true scotsman‘ fallacy but the question is, what the victim of such a perpetrator can be forced to say, legally and ethically.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 12/10/2018 00:05

Is following the bench book mandatory (by law) or not? Because if not surely Justice Lady Hale's statement and the Supreme Court's ruling regarding ECHR article 10 take precedence? So e.g. in case of Tara Wood trial, Judge was breaking the law? And if this is the case, could Maria take legal action on this basis? (Not a lawyer so not entirely sure how it works though. Can you even take legal action against the legal system?).

Imnobody4 · 12/10/2018 00:22

Yes I think the recent ruling by Justice Lady Hale changes everything. While court officials should respect pronouns I really don't see how a witness could be compelled under oath to say what they believe to be untrue, particularly if they are the victim- it completely invalidates there experience and interferes with their testimony.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 00:46

For the very specific focus of the thread, no, I think the Asher's case has highlighted that you cannot be compelled to use certain language. I'd be prepared to go to the wire on that one.

Wrt to the point brought up about calling White 'she' to highlight the bankruptcy of the 'no true transwoman' obfuscation, yes, it's a good first step in the argument, but you have to follow it up with the point that accepting White as a woman is the consequence of self ID, because otherwise it's really confusing to the newbie.

I totally agree that it's a devastating point to highlight that women are not women based on how morally good they are, and you can't lose your 'membership of the club' by doing a bad thing and AWAs need to own that.

But the reason White is not accepted into the 'woman club' is because it's not a club you join, it is a sex you are born into, and White wasn't. The kind of person they are, the way they see themselves, the lies they have told, the things they have done are irrelevant. One of the reasons we oppose self ID because it leads to some men taking the opportunity to abuse women. A man who self declares that he is a woman does not, by dint of his magical pronouncement, cease to be as much of a possible risk as when he was 'legally' a man.

Follow through to the logical end, otherwise there are going to be vulnerable women hearing GC feminists saying Karen White is a woman and getting very upset indeed.

Iused2BanOptimist · 12/10/2018 01:40

Lengthy and wordy though it would be could one not say "The person with a penis who presents as a woman" each time?
Or just use the name each time.
I would go to prison for contempt rather than refer to a rapist as she on the judge's orders. And that would peak quite a few if the general public.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 02:50

I think prosecution lawyers should be prepared to back the principle Hale's judgement has established to the hilt, otherwise there will be serious miscarriages of justice.

Giving evidence, particularly in a sexual assault case, is enormously stressful. It's also a situation where, due to possible PTSD, the witness is already at high risk of completely unwittingly "garbling" their account of events and thus coming across as "unreliable" due to the effects of trauma on memory. To add further to the cognitive load on the witness by insisting that they either lie ("she" got "her" penis out) or perform unnatural grammatical contortions on the witness stand is to create a situation which makes it artificially impossible for witnesses to give their testimony in such a way that they come across as credible, even though they are in fact telling the truth.

Imagine trying to relate your experience of being raped in open court in front of the jury, court officials, public gallery (possibly including hostile members of the accused's family), faced by an aggressive defence barrister, and on top of that the judge keeps interrupting you every other sentence to correct your pronouns.

"Then he held me down, gripping my wrists..."

"She held you down"

"Then he unzipped his fly and got his penis out..."

"She got her penis out."

"He forced my legs apart."

"She. If you continue to misgender the witness I'm going to have to hold you in contempt of court."

arranfan · 12/10/2018 09:05

This seems to be a very recent ruling from Baroness Hale:

“Nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe.”
(Zimbabwe) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2012] UKSC 38; [2013] 1 AC 152 [42

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1050069596974272512

I've no idea how it intersects with the Bench Book and if it trumps it, so to speak. Perhaps the presiding figure (e.g., judge) will have the final decision about how this is handled in the courtroom.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 09:12

The common sense solution is that court officials respect stated identities and witnesses give evidence according to their perceptions and beliefs, without being threatened with contempt.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 09:30

The common sense solution is that court officials respect stated identities and witnesses give evidence according to their perceptions and beliefs, without being threatened with contempt.

I wonder if one concern is that failure to comply with pronouns in this case might be of use by a defence team to appeal a 'guilty' verdict on the basis of a hostile/biased court proceeding?

doctorbarbie · 12/10/2018 10:12

Let's never forget #rapisthill!

speakingwoman · 12/10/2018 13:46

“The common sense solution is that court officials respect stated identities and witnesses give evidence according to their perceptions and beliefs, without being threatened with contempt.”

Yes, that makes sense. Thankyou.

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