Implications of the Irish gay cake ruling

[MIdgebabe]

Specifically No one is required to manifest a belief that they do not hold

Yes, MN have fairly strict restrictions about what can be said, terms that are banned etc. I think it's ridiculous, but there we are.

What MN are not doing is forcing every poster to preface their words with 'Of course, TWAW'. That's the difference that this ruling speaks to.

I'm not a fan of enforcing bans, but that's a slightly different issue to compelling speech.

Just for clarification, as there seems to be some confusion.

The cake was not ordered by a couple, and it was not ordered for a wedding.

It was ordered by a man, Mr Lee, who is a member of an LGBT group for a private event held by that group.

Mr Lee had bought cakes from Ashers Bakery in the past.

abbsisspartacus the bakery is in Northern Ireland where gay marriage is not legal. This is irrelevant though as the case was decided by the UK supreme court. The ruling would have been the same if the bakery in question was in England or Wales or Scotland

Although I think the fact the bakery refused to write a statement in support an act which is currently not legal in NI perhaps should have been taken into account in throwing it out at first instance.

I’m with many of the previous posters in that I used to be on the side of the prospective purchasers, but now I can see the side of the bakers. I feel a bit shamed that I couldn’t see their right to not be forced to state a belief that they didn’t hold, until the recent events made me see how that feels. Every day a school day 🙄

Was being gay in Ireland allowed at the time? This happened in Northern Ireland

Every day a school day, indeed! And recent events have shown me people are not bigoted just because they don't agree with me!

I am pleased to see that billboards are irrelevant when we can light up buildings like Posie is doing!!!! #adulthumanfemale in London tonight.

Hurrah for Posie, and for technology!

The title,is,wrong. It happened in Northern Ireland, under the Uk legal system.

All this sort of thread does is convince me further that when people stop coming for trans rights they'll start coming for gay rights. What if it said 'fight Islamophobia' or 'support rights for people with disabilities'? So what if they gave them a cake and a tube of icing? So what if it was a set up?So what if the judgment was legally right? It's just a legal construction of logic. Conflict was the only winner. It's the grey areas that matter. Why did any of the parties go to court? Why did newspapers wind people up against each other? Why aren't you all lamenting the conflict and offering ways forward (eg getting the Christian LGBT org Open Table involved to mediate).

I don’t understand how a company that is a legal fiction and not an actual person can have a conscience and claim freedom of religion.

Yeah, cos Peter Tatchell is definitely ‘coming for gay rights’ next. He wants to see his whole life’s work, for which he has been beaten and vilified for decades, go up in smoke. FFS.

One might have thought the fact Peter Tatchell has supported Ashers from the outset might have given pause for thought.

Tatchell is a brave man of great integrity who has been speaking out on gay rights and human rights for decades. He has put himself at risk of violence (the real kind- not the "literal violence" some social justice warriors witter on about , misunderstanding both words)

He has been pilloried in the press and by opponents (Simon Hughes and the Lib Dems should forever be ashamed of the Bermondsey campaign). I can't think of a more reliable person to determine that the decision was not only correct in law but ethically and philosophically correct.

Ashers were in a no win situation the moment the cake was ordered. They were widely known to be a Christian business. If they had produced the cake word would have got out, as it always does in a small place like N Ireland, and people would have been gleefully bashing them for their money grabbing hypocrisy. They refused the cake and found themselves in court.

Personally I think the verdict was sensible. They didn't refuse to serve the customer because he was gay (he said himself that they had served him in the past) they just refused to make that particular cake. I think that's fine, partly because I would hate to think that someone could walk into a bakery owned by a gay couple and demand that they ice a cake with something like 'homosexuality is evil'.

spannablue "Why aren't you all lamenting the conflict and offering ways forward (eg getting the Christian LGBT org Open Table involved to mediate)."

Why aren't you?

I'm a Christian and pro same sex marriage. But it's not my place to ram my views down anyone's throat.

If some Christians don't approve of same sex marriage that is their business.

It wasn't a wedding cake. I think there are bigger issues for humanity than every one getting on board and agreeing on this one issue.

I was very pro same sex marriage but as time goes on I do see how the church (in some quarters) has been bullied. I don't feel too bad as 'the church' has done its fair share of bullying.

But I do care about individual people and you won't change minds and hearts with forcing views on to others.

In the church issues around same sex marriage have come on in leaps and bounds (thankfully).

This cake crap has actually been hugely detrimental to this, IMHO.

treaclesoda 100% agree. "Personally I think the verdict was sensible."

And

"... I would hate to think that someone could walk into a bakery owned by a gay couple and demand that they ice a cake with something like 'homosexuality is evil'.

No business or individual should be forces to do this but it's probably happened plenty. This case stood out because they refused to be bullied.

The idea that homophobia is not writing a message in icing is so far removed from the real meaning, which is why we have ended up where we are!

Live and let live means freedom for gay people and for people not to have to agree with everyone else all the time.

Why did any of the parties go to court?

Oh dear me. Ashers were dragged into court by Gareth Lee. They had no choice in the matter.

I don't understand how and when LBGT movement became so intolerant and authoritarian. There still is discrimination but the way activists are behaving they'll end up with a backlash.

Imnobody4 it's about balance of power. Who has it. How they use it.

LGBT as a loose 'organisation- will probity eat itself. IMHO.

Fair and equal rights are the way to go. I don't force you to bake a cake in favour of same sex marriage. You (hypothetical you) don't force me to bake a cake against same sex marriage.

They lost the moral high ground when they picked on people for their beliefs. Loads of violent, aggressive shits hurt and harm others, why not pick on them! They made it about cake IMHO. Buying a cake and demanding it say what you want isn't a human rights issue!

In parts of Africa gay men and lesbians are murdered and subject to so called ' corrective rape'. Had they taken on those fuckers or their supporters I think we would have been behind them 100%.

(And other countries too of course.)

“Irish” gay cake ruling?

This happened in the UK, not in Ireland. Gay marriage is legal in Ireland, but not in all of the UK.

I’ve asked if hq could change the title. They haven’t replied.

So apparently Mr Lee is considering an appeal to the European Court FGS

I’ve asked if hq could change the title. They haven’t replied

Same.

Incidentally, when a cafe in Dublin refused to make a cake for a gay couple several years ago, they were run out of business.

Hopefully, the UK will catch-up on equality soon.

It IS discriminatory, what if they refused to bake a cake for an interracial couple ? No difference at all

And the stupidity begins.

Incidentally, when a cafe in Dublin refused to make a cake for a gay couple several years ago, they were run out of business.

Hopefully, the UK will catch-up on equality soon.

And continues.

Stupidity: it's the gift that keeps giving.