It's progress so it's good

[ThisIsTheFirstStep]

Got into an online discussion (very polite on both sides, which is a bonus in this day and age) about trans rights today.

Their main argument seemed to be 'trans rights are progress and therefore it's good'.

I just don't get how people can argue that. Just label anything as 'progress' and it will be seen as a good thing, even though it's hopelessly regressive.

I guess a lot of these people are young, and they don't really see that, actually, the world changes very little, and often goes in circles. In the 90s, I truly thought the world was getting better as regards sexism, racism, homophobia etc...but look at us now! Brexit, the rise of extreme right wing parties, Trump etc.

I don't even know what I'm trying to say, just the argument that 'it's progress' stuck out at me because I a. don't see it as progressive but regressive and b. don't think that all change/progress is necessarily a good thing.

I think they are young

Or women who've not encountered any hardship in their lives yet

Or men who never gave much of a shit about women really

Or perverts

That is, unfortunately, a lot of people

I think it's the comparison with homophobia that is the problem. In the past there was terrible homophobia, there has been huge progress over the last few years and nearly everyone sees that as a good thing.

At a superficial glance, the trans issue seems very similar. So anyone who hasn't thought too hard about it is inclined to draw parallels and immediately see it as a good thing.

The problem is that the effect on women's rights makes this so much more complicated. But, genuinely, lots of people who don't read this board haven't really thought about all the implications.

mums I think you're right.

What's staggering to me is how little men give a shit. I mean, I have ALWAYS known this, but I thought enough of them had faith in science (since many of them love to try to prove how much they know about this and that) that they would see through this muppetry.

And as for the women...yeah. I guess when you're young, it's easier to side with the powerful until you realise that they are willing to fuck you over. I think many women think that men will have their back, as long as they play along with the sexy/stripping/choice/coolgirl nonsense. Back when I was a serial shagger, I definitely thought the men I was going with respected me. What a laugh. They just looked at me as a piece of meat. Gah.

mango agreed. Although I never bought the 'transwomen are women' stuff, I was definitely more on board with it until all this self ID stuff came up. I mean, let them wear a dress, wear make up etc, right? It wasn't affecting me. I'm actually ok with letting those who are fully committed to the lifestyle into toilets etc, I mean, I will never EVER believe they're actually women, but ok, it didn't seem like a big deal.

Now they're actively taking safe places away, they're getting awards that women should be getting...not ok.

I don't even think it is progress - telling girls that if they like "boys" stuff they're doing female wrong and might be a boy. Progress would be enabling men and women to live with the bodies and personalities they have, not pushing them further into boxes.

I think progress would be when a man can wear a dress and a woman can get a crew cut and a job working as a greasemonkey in a car repair shop and nobody cares or even thinks it's worth remarking on.

The idea that your interests and sartorial preferences are literally the core of your identity is the opposite of progress.

Everard - yes, exactly! I think a lot of people don't really care about loos and changing rooms but this is the real sticking point. I don't want my dd to have such a limited vision of what woman (or man) means. This trans agenda strikes me as being bizarrely more conservative and retrogade, not progress at all!

@everard, angry and kew - yup, as I said in my OP, it's regressive, not progressive.

That's at what annoys me about so much of this.

If you think "progress" means movement then sure, but it's movement in the wrong direction.

I think a lot of people just kind of repeat things they hear like slogans without really thinking about what they mean. For some it may be a way of self soothing, as in oh I don't really like this and it worries me but it's "progress" so what can you do?

(Lots, is the answer.)

angry but I think a lot of them really think it IS progress.

They see LGBT all in the same category (as well as QXYZ or whatever else they've lobbed in there). And who is against gay rights these days? Almost no one. So they think they must also be pro transgender, to not be so is to be anti-progress.

Many men's fears and prejudices about homosexuality stemmed from fear and disgust. They felt threatened by open homosexuality, especially in vulnerable situations such as changing rooms, or situations of hightened tension such as boardrooms and battlefields. I don't remember any such concerns from women about lesbianism.

Now the men who felt or feel threatened by non-normative male behaviour see the opportunity for it to be removed from the male sphere. Therefore that is a good thing - for them. Women have always been more accepting of non-normative behaviour, so what's the big deal?

Are they happy about it, though, or do they feel like it's their duty to suppress their worries or discomfort because "progress"?

There's definitely an element of men loving the idea that they can push the men who make them uncomfortable out their groups/spaces and hurt feminists/women at the same time. Some of the "take that, feminists/women, you wanted equality and now you've got it!" responses on news articles are striking in how gleefully open they are about only caring because they know women don't want this at all.

jelly yup and you can't reason with them that they are only going along with this stuff because it is the current social norm.

The lack of critical thinking is baffling to me. We have a well-educated population. But most just go along with whatever the current line of thought is.

I genuinely think some people have made being nice and inclusive Such a central part of their identity that they honestly can’t bare the thought of appearing mean. I think they’ve decided that their moral purity is such that they’ve completely disengaged the part of their brain that does critical thinking. It’s been quite eye opening for me, because some of the people I respected for being decent and non judgemental, I now suspect of being either unable or unwilling to apply any critical thought whatsoever, which is a different quality entirely. I have learned throughout my life that things are rarely black and white, or good and evil, and if you ever find yourself in a place where things appear that way, you’ve probably picked a side and switched off your brain, and if you’ve had to do that in order to fully believe then you’ve been brainwashed, and the thoughts and ideas you thought were your own are in fact nothing of the sort.

Or in short, some people are gullible fuckwits who are more concerned with the way people see them than the implications for other people of the shit they spout, because saying unpopular things is bad, and they’re not bad. They’ve made the error of mistaking wwokeness for being open minded, because open mindedness means you’re open to considering any possibilities, but wwokeness is believing any old shit if the right people tell it to you and closing your mind to all other avenues of thought.

bad I think a lot of it is definitely not wanting to be mean. I am astonished, literally astonished, by so many of the posts on here (especially on AIBU) where women are too scared to say 'no' to anyone, or too scared to stand up for themselves, or to ask for a fair amount of money, or to tell people to stop being twats. I'm not some great stomping Germaine Greer of a woman (I wish) but I have never been afraid to tell people what I think and it baffles me that you have these women doing favours for people they hate, or going for coffee with friends they've outgrown, or not wanting to ask their boss for a raise. So yes, I think that's a big part of it, and I really think we need to stop teaching little girls to be nice and kind and to let people walk all over them.

And yes to your second part too, a huge number of people just think 'I am woke, woke people are in favour of trans stuff, therefore I am in favour of trans stuff.' Their level of critical thinking doesn't go beyond that. Quite scary.