Anyone who's a Lib Dem and/or knows about how they work, please help!

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

I am (still - just...) a long-time Lib Dem member, but have had on my to-do list for ages that I MUST do something to stand up against their increasingly anti-women policies, in particular their prostitution policy (supporting decriminalisation, against Nordic Model), and their stance on self ID and allowing rampant TRA misogyny in their name, such as the LGBT+Lib Dems twitter feed and Sarah Brown's fiddling with the law in Cambridge. Frankly I'm furious with the way things have been going there lately, and can't keep supporting them unless there's a big change.

However I'm not sure of the best way to approach this. I suppose the first question is whether to quit, or stay and try to work to change policies from within. If I leave they will stop getting my money and I can send them an emphatic resignation letter (though not sure who that should go to, and how widely it would be seen?), but then would have no further influence - and also, as they are almost the only ones opposing Brexit as a party and in many other ways, my "natural" party, I wouldn't know where to go instead.

So the other option is stay and try to change things. But as a previously not heavily active member (been tied up with having babies etc like so many of us!), I'm not really sure how the party works and what method(s) are best to do this - writing letters (who to?), talking to local councillors, anything else? (Our local MP is not a Lib Dem so that's no use).

Has anyone else had this dilemma and what did you do? Or anyone in the party who can help me understand how it works and the best way to make a difference (with limited time etc)? Thank you!

I was a member and I stopped over this last year and wrote and explained to them why. I wrote a long and detailed letter outlining all my concerns.

I got a one sentence reply back from what I presumed at the time was a woke work experience person but having learned more now may well have been someone with influence.

It basically said transwomen are women bigot and we don't want people like you in our party (obvs not in those words)

So I don't know.

If the Conservatives came out and supported women in all this I think they would be on their own.

I think all the parties have been taken over by MRAs using this as a woke disguise. Men don't have the same caring and juggling issues in life as women do so they have much more free time to spend doing stuff like this.

I’m a member. Not at all confident that we’re anything other than a small minority- from what I’ve seen on various Facebook chats a lot of kool aid has been drunk and #nodebate is fairly dominant. I’m worried by the way Aimee Challenor has been taken on board as well. She’s entitled to join, but it worries me the way it’s being trumpeted.

They appointed someone a while back (I can't remember her name now but I think she is/was a midwife which gave me false hope on the feminist front) who deals with complaints and concerns within the party. There's a contact on the website. I wrote to her about my concerns including some stuff about sexism in my local party. I was basically fobbed off. She said my complaint had been passed on to the local party but I never heard anything (even though I used to be very active in it) despite my multiple attempts to follow it up. The things I raised on a national level about THAT twitter account were given the standard "it's nothing to do with us" response they were giving everyone at the time.
Basically, I complained and it got me nowhere so I resigned.

My local party is okay.
I have written to some of the MPs and eventually got some replies. I think Brian Paddick is sympathetic but he's hard to contact.
There are others in the party who are concerned. I would suggest joining Lib Dem Women just to add to the numbers there who are concerned.
But I would also urge caution, these are dangerous times and do consider how much you are willing to risk. I tend to be silent with occasional raiding of my head over the parapet.
Do reply to the government consultation on Gender Reassignment.

My position is I will stay until Brexit is sorted, then if it seems at all likely until PR is implemented, but then will reconsider. And I will make it public how debate is being silenced and I as a woman feel unsafe.

Thanks all, some good food for thought already! I'm tied up for most of today, but will have a proper look and think later on.

Whats the position with your local party? It depends on where you are and whether they have a reasonable presence. You may find that local members have no idea about the subject.

Because the party is federalised, although you join nationally, your local party is your first port of call and generally fairly independent from the central party.

I would guess that informing local activitists in more rural type areas where the LDs have localised strong holds - particularly older members might be the way to go.

The lib dem demographic is weirdly split between older grass roots types and younger more trendy types who do the trans women are women chants or hold office in the party. The localised grass roots types who don't go to conference are the ones you want to recruit.

Also the LDs have a disportionately high number of educators and scientists. I'll be willing to beat there is a large number of them who are feeling equally frustrated/ worried if they know whats going on, and if they don't will be utterly horrified.

Think along those lines. I think there needs to be a groundswell within the party of people having concerns that needs to happen before the upper cliques and the fantatics of the party get tackled by the leadership. At the moment the leadership are probably unlikely to do much, simply because the volunteers who are most active in all the executives and non-local LD groups are part of TRA clique or are TRA fantatics. For the party to run they need their labour. They just don't have the manpower otherwise.

Equally though, its the grassroots who do all the leaflet drops. If they are pissed / upset then its an issue for the central party.

On this score, grassroots type could think along the lines of refusing to help the party on a practical level by withdrawing labour to make a point. Whilst still being a member eligible to vote.

Part of me wonders if one of the reasons for Vince's big idea is to try and break the power of some of the cliques in the party. This is also why his idea will fail, because those with power in the party won't want it diluted either.

Red toothbrush that is a great useful reply.
Ahagwears - I too am very concerned that absolutely no discussion is allowed, If you say anything you will be kicked out...

Ex-member here. When I was involved the party essentially had two wings, the grassroots members who did all the leaflet delivery and stood at local councl level, and the ones who made up the committees and the Federal Executive. That seemed to be a lot more about swanning around knowing the right people and being important. They will be the ones setting the tone on TWAW.

It's my impression that the party prides itself on its history of being very pro-gay and pro-lesbian, and sees being pro-trans as part of that tradition.

Policy is made by conference. But I think to have a vote at conference you have to be sent by your local party. I wasn't very involved with that side of things. Delivered a shed-load of leaflets though.

So this link shows you the current 'Federal Board.' Chaired by Sal Brinton, who I think recently said that she would have no problem with a Parliament made up of 50 % men and 50 % transwomen. Note also Caron Lindsay who was one of the first to welcome Aimee Challoner to the party.

I wish you luck, OP. But I hold out no hope.

www.libdems.org.uk/federal_board

Sal Brinton didn't just swig the KoolAid. She went swimming in it.

A friend just sent me this message:

"The lib dem women's Facebook group has just suspended three members for expressing concern on.....

The silencing of women!

You could not make it up. Specially they were concerned about Aimee Challenor and terfblocker, but also not being able to discuss anything on self id.

I think the women thrown out were the former chair of the campaign group Radical association, plus two others. They are no longer in the group anyhow.

The former chair of the RA was deposed due to being decried as TERF."

Sarah Brown and Zoe O'Connell apparently very dominant in this regard.

my parents are members and had no idea about selfID, and didn't think anyone else in the local party is aware. they said they were going to bring it up with the local party.
will be interesting to see how that goes

Bet you two MN , the local party won't be impressed by the policy once its fully explained.

Christ alive. I had been hoping that the Lib Dem desire for nice outcomes for all would overcome any authoritarian desire to shut up anyone who disagrees.

Perhaps not.

terfed off - so women have been kicked out and their voices replaced by TRA’s? Says it all.

I was in contact with a couple of local Lib Dem organisers to ask specifically about the trans issue and the guy I spoke to said he and his wife were very concerned about it and that I was saying almost word for word what his wife said. He told me to join and fight but after reading the LGBT Lib Dem Tweets I couldn't bear it.

I will vote for any political party that declares itself against self ID and promises to revisit the GRA and Equality Act. At the moment I have no one to vote for and if there was a general election next month I would have to spoil my vote in protest. It's a desperate situation. I'm an educated, rational, thoughtful, decent person and no party represents my view on this issue.

Thanks everyone for your input! Lots to think about. From what you've said, my inclination is to stay a while and at least TRY to get heard with the local group - it sounds like for those who left, it made very little impression on the party anyway, so there may be more I can do that way.

So far I haven't really been actively involved at all, but I've chatted several times with one of the long-standing local campaigners (and former councillor), who seems a decent bloke and the last time I saw him I actually brought up my concerns about self-ID etc and he seemed quite taken aback (at the policy, not at me!) - it seemed like he didn't really have much understanding of the implications. So I'm thinking there might be some scope for working on that with him and the other local people if I can link up with them (maybe offer help). Also that fits with my inclination to keep fighting Brexit too.... Votes-wise it probably won't make a difference anyway as I'm in a fairly safe (non-LD) seat so whether I stuck with LDs or not it probably won't change much. My impression of the local team is that if they saw some of the things on the LD twitter accounts and the Sarah B shenanigans, they might well be as horrified as me...

You're also making me think too that some family members are also staunch Lib Dems and are the sort who actually do leafleting and so on where they live. So I should really flag up what's going on to them too, and then maybe they can also start kicking back. Again they weren't really aware of all this, but I've been enlightening them lately and got them to (hopefully) fill in the consultation, so they might be prepared to act on this as well. And as none of the other parties seem much better on this, I'm thinking it's worth a try....

I'm a member. I'm not in England. Someone is trying to get a topical motion to our national conference on TWAW.

I'm not engaging because I don't have the energy to fight it articulately. I've had a horribly stressful day at work. But potentially if this goes to conference then it's an opportunity for debate at least.

The problem is it needs enough members to know about the subject for a debate or it will be dominated by the usual suspects. Particularly because the are one issue fanatics.

They are watching mumsnet....

One of the group members has posted that people with transphobic views has shared details of what is happening.

Sarah Brown wonders why people who don't share their values want to be members.

So this is the lib dems women's group not allowing women to voice concerns about the proposed amendments to the Gender Recognition Act. A piece of legislation currently in place.

Are any other lib dem groups so censorious? Are people allowed to hold different views in other areas such as Brexit?

Or is it only questioning the definition of a woman that causes immediately expulsion?

I still can't believe that posting Jane Clare Jones is viewed as thoughtcrime in the lib dems.

[from the Aimee C thread]

I'm an active lib dem member and am very keen to broaden the arguments on this. I think Red's advice on the other thread to engage with your local party is a very good one. They would (hell I would!) be very sorry if they knew they were set to lose keen volunteers (and votes) because the groups in the centre were acting like a very adherent branch of a minor totalitarian party.

Not the third party of the UK yes I know the snp...

Here is the woman who chaired the lib dem Radical Association being expelled from that position, back in March 2018

The LD's Radical Association voted 89% in No Confidence in their Chair who, in this powerfully liberal summary from our friend Hickey:

For those who haven't been following this, the chair in question turned out to be a TERF. This is what we think of TERFs in the Lib Dems.

mobile.twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/971547308608368640

From this thread.

OP I am with you on this. Do we need a campaign group of our own?

An Actually Radical Group Hub? - AARGH

They would (hell I would!) be very sorry if they knew they were set to lose keen volunteers (and votes) because the groups in the centre were acting like a very adherent branch of a minor totalitarian party.

I suggest you circulate links to the Ocado boycott threads to those responsible for promoting membership. The LibDem voting patterns and Ocado delivery maps would have a fair degree of correlation. TRAs have been very good at entryism, essentially seizing the policy agenda in Stonewall and from there promoting that agenda via diversity roles, advice and training across the public and third sectors and major organsiations such as banks. The problem for political parties is that this agenda does not carry votes. 82% of the population struggle to accept self-ID. So Lib-Dems have a choice. Be woke and see voters head off to their competitors.

Sarah Brown wonders why people who don't share their values want to be members.

Because Sarah, seeing as you are reading this, liberal traditions rest on the value of debate and bringing people along with you in a debate not imposing a particular view on others.

Because that's liberalism. A tolerance for others and understanding a broad spectrum of ideas and looking for a way to accommodate different values and beliefs.

An understanding of education through engagement and understanding the fundamental principles of democracy.

The LDs are NOT a single policy party either. Much as that must irk you.

If you are remotely interested in representing others you need to accept that they 'shock horror' have different priorities and problems which are very much at odds with your own. And whilst you might not agree with them as an elected representative you should understand where they are coming from and if they have a problem help them.

As others say, it's almost as if the LD hierachy have stopped listening to the grassroots because they have disappeared up their own arises in their special safe echo chamber.

If you are not prepared to expose yourself to difficult ideas and people and be ideologically challenged then you are not fit to stand as a public representative.

The trans issue is a sideshow to that. It should be a universal principle that all liberals understand. If you call yourself a Liberal at least understand the over Riding central pillar of liberalism.

I know several LD members who come from an eastern European background who are utterly horrified at the 1984 tones of modern politics and the manipulation of language and silencing. One of them is considerably older than you and has been in the party for, well forever. When did you join? If you didn't share his values why did you join the party?

Honestly. Your thinking and logic all centres on you. No one else. That why so many have a problem. Not because you are trans.

Great post Red

I will check the LD site to see if it has "silencing dissent" in the Our Values section.