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Original poster

Judge is going to rule on the 'landmark' case determining if a child can be born without a mother.

115 replies

R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 13:26

Independent: 'Judge to decide whether baby can be first in UK history to be born without a mother in landmark trans rights case
Transgender parent says being forced to register as the child’s 'mother' breaches his human right to respect for privacy and family life'
(extract)
"The most senior Family Court judge in England and Wales is set to rule on a case involving a transgender man whose baby is at the centre of a historic human rights fight.

Lawyers say the baby could become the first person born in England or Wales who will not legally have a mother.

The baby is the child of a single parent who was born a woman but now lives as a man after undergoing surgery.

NHS faces legal action unless it offers trans people fertility service
Judges have heard that the man had been biologically able to get pregnant and give birth but had legally become male by the time the child was born.

He wants to be identified as the child's “father” or “parent” on a birth certificate but a registrar has told him that the law requires people who give birth to be registered as mothers." (continues)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-man-baby-birth-certificate-mother-trans-rights-landmark-case-family-court

UKTELI 'landmark case'

Judge is going to rule on the 'landmark' case determining if a child can be born without a mother.
OP posts:
Keeptrudging · 01/10/2018 14:04

If it makes no difference, why is the person with a womb who gave birth to a baby taking this case to court?

bluetitsaretits · 01/10/2018 14:04

Heartbreaking story. This baby has a right to know their genetic history. There are health conditions where it's significant whether it occurs on your mother's or father's side.

Betsvigi9 · 01/10/2018 14:09

The child has human rights too. This child has a right to know who it's mother is when it is old enough to want to find out. I don't think that the mother's right to identify as male should be a valid reason to falsify information on the child's birth certificate.

Serfisafleur · 01/10/2018 14:09

"Surgery" probably means double mastectomy here.
Removal of healthy breast tissue that would benefit the child.

Obviously not a hysterectomy, nor phaloplasty.

53rdWay · 01/10/2018 14:10

The child surely has the right to accurate information about its parentage, in the same way that donor-conceived children do and adopted children do. I don’t see how it would be in the best interests of the child to have the parent who gave birth listed as ‘father’ and the space for ‘mother’ left blank.

From a legal precedent kind of view there’s also a question about what ‘mother’ means on a birth certificate I suppose. If giving birth doesn’t qualify you as a birth mother, what other criteria should we use and how do we fairly apply those to everyone?

adulthumanfemail · 01/10/2018 14:11

But surely you can't have surgery when pregnant!!

Original poster
R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 14:12

And it makes what exact difference that public record states that the father of the child is X (mans name).

Having being diagnosed with gyny cancer, I can assure you that it is very relevent to know who is mother / father, maternal grandmother / grandfather, paternal grandmother / grandfather.

The birth certificate is the child's, not the parents'.

OP posts:
Hideandgo · 01/10/2018 14:13

The child has a father. There are many children with only one parent on the birth cert. I fail to see the issue. It’s like the handwringing over gay parents all over again. (What about the child’s rights blah blah). The child is likely to be just as loved and protected and looked after as it would have been should this father have wished to be ‘the mother’. It’s the same person. He not shittier just because he’s now the father.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 14:14

But surely you can't have surgery when pregnant!!

Surgery can mean all sorts of things.

Its taboo to ask but the intended inference is that it is full GRS. It often isn't.

OP posts:
Hideandgo · 01/10/2018 14:15

R0wan I’m sure the child will know all about it if it’s father is diagnosed with ovarian cancer, or paternal grandparent. You’re grasping.

adulthumanfemail · 01/10/2018 14:17

The baby should absolutely have accurate information written on their birth certificate. The baby may need to know who was 'the female person that birthed them'. Perhaps the birth certificate can say 'Father (female)' or something?? I don't know the answer!

drspouse · 01/10/2018 14:17

What's the timeline here?
Surgery I'm assuming before pregnancy
Does this person have a GRC?
If so then clearly there was no intention to live permanently as a man.
But of course everyone is supposed to believe that men get pregnant now.

53rdWay · 01/10/2018 14:17

Hideandgo I don’t think fathers are ‘shittier’ than mothers or that straight people make better parents than gay people. I do think all children deserve accurate information about their biological parents.

We have generally moved away from the view that children don’t need this information. We used to be much happier to conceal this for adopted children and donor-conceived children, but now see the information as something all children have a right to have because it’s information about themselves. That’s the issue to me, and seems more substantial than ‘hand-wringing’.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 14:19

I fail to see the issue.

That's clear and ok.

Just because you can't see one, doesn't mean that there aren't some.

No doubt, these will be raised and examined in court.

A similar case in Germany (I think) went through similar.

It wasn't successful.

OP posts:
drspouse · 01/10/2018 14:21

Also, for adopted children in the UK, the certificate that shows your legal parents isn't a birth certificate. So no problem with it showing two men or two women. Child has two legal fathers, and a birth mother who can't raise them but about whom the child has age-appropriate information.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 14:21

R0wan I’m sure the child will know all about it if it’s father is diagnosed with ovarian cancer, or paternal grandparent. You’re grasping.

No Im not. I speak with considerable experience of the issues.

You clearly do not.

It isn't just about first generation, hence my post.

OP posts:
gendercritter · 01/10/2018 14:21

How he has sex or conceived is a private matter

It's really not that controversial to talk about Hideandgo

This person is a biological female. There are limted ways of conceiving a child. It's basic biology or a little bit of help from modern medicine.

theredjellybean · 01/10/2018 14:21

I am not sure this is an issue that is worth so much angst.
If birth certificates listed biological parents instead of naming one as a mother and one as a father there would be no issue.
After all the current situation uses mother to name the female adult who gave birth to the child. While we all know giving birth does not make you a mother.
Mother implies a parent who is parenting...
Some mothers don't parent.
Ditto 'father'
This is not a child being given up for adoption, the child will have the parent who gave birth raising them so will have access to their female related medical history.
It does not seem such a huge deal. The parent now wants to be seen as a 'father' rather than 'mother' by society. What does it matter.. As long as the child is raised by their loving caring parent

Potato2242 · 01/10/2018 14:22

This reply has been deleted

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Keeptrudging · 01/10/2018 14:22

There was a similar case a few years ago. It was unsuccessful as it went against the rights of the child (info is near the end).

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11551217/Transgender-father-loses-court-battle-over-childrens-birth-certificates.html

MynameisJune · 01/10/2018 14:23

Obviously don’t know the full circumstances of conception but if it was say a one night stand or donor. What would happen if in years to come the child found its other parent and they decided to go to court to be put on the birth certificate? The space for father would already be filled by the birth parent so where would the name of the other parent go? Especially if they are male and doesn’t identify as female.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 14:23

It would set legal precedent on who is a mother / father.

This would have wide reaching implications.

OP posts:
Noqont · 01/10/2018 14:23

The child has rights too. In this case to have recorded on their birth certificate the correct parentage. Another child being used in the trans ideology game. Seems to me that many of these trans activists don't give a fuck about children at all, only how they can be used to manoeuvre the desired end goals for themselves.

Serfisafleur · 01/10/2018 14:25

It may rest on the dictionary definition.

"Father"
Noun
A man in relation to his child

"Man"
Noun
An adult human male

If it is deciphered that this person is male then they could indeed be their father. It's up to the courts now. I'll follow with interest.

drspouse · 01/10/2018 14:25

red A parent is BOTH the biological reproducer AND the person raising a child. Failing to acknowledge that is disastrous for children for whom they aren't the same person. You can't erase biology.