Women and physics

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45703700

Apparently men have been discriminated against in physics! He might have had a slender point had he focussed on positive discrimination, but, for a scientist he has a tenuous grasp on the idea of reliable research.

Bump

Oooh! I should have asked a question, shouldn't I?

I heard it on Radio2 news. A woman spoke in a really disbelieving voice, sort of tired, weary. I had to go look it up!

He was speaking at CERN, of all places.

I wonder why such a charmer was overlooked in a job interview.

Yes! His comment to the BBC was really odd, didn't come across as warm, inviting, personable - he was 'just sayin'

It’s tricky without having seen the talk but I can sort of see that there may be a good point buried in there....but I think the conclusions reached are wrong.

I’ve just completed a phd in physical chemistry, I was heavily involved in the Athena Swan committee at my university etc. What I see and experience in my discipline was that the actual structure of the post-phd academic career was indirectly discriminatory towards women. So the requirement to do a series of (preferably international) short term post-doc contracts, the pressure to keep a research output churning even through “maternity leave” etc etc tends to discriminate against women. Therefore there are many fewer women in academic careers.

However, instituations are offered ‘cookies’ (Athena Swan) to paper over the cracks and hire as many female academics as possible. So I’ve seen in my discipline, a couple of women who are aren’t as academically strong as their male colleagues but who have decided not to pursue family/marriage and/or who have non-stereotypically female set-ups get fellowships and chairs because their institutions are so desperate to appear non-biased.

It’s much easier for a university to appear ‘feminist’ and ‘non-gender biased’ by just hiring a less ‘good’ women than it is to address why the structure means that there are fewer good women even in the running.

This was just on Woman's Hour.

As I said, he would have had a point had he just talked about positive discrimination. But "Physics was built by men - not invitation" is a soundbite that is too misogynist to ignore!

He has to have heard of Marie Curie, and her daughter.

Émilie du Châtelet. You can't translate something you don't understand and the Principia certainly no child's book.

Emmy Noether. Einstein rated her.

I am listening to CERNs response now.... they had no idea that he would choose to say that at their first workshop on gender and high energy physics.

My OH looked him up on his commute in. He is indeed a sexist pig. And on a she'd load of appointment panels.

Cern says "Cern is a culturally diverse organisation bringing together people from dozens of nationalities. It is a place where everyone is welcome, and all have the same opportunities, regardless of ethnicity, beliefs, gender or sexual orientation"
The answer is obvious: identify as a woman.
(Can we teach the physicists some biology, please)

I love his quote where he says "men prefer working with things and women prefer working with people". I wonder what his colleagues think of being referred to as 'things'.

But interviewee, think of all the less academically strong males who have gained positions because women are discriminated against. I expect that is far more of a problem.

Positions are never filled entirely and only based on merit. Men have such an overwhelming leg-up the majority of the time that we should not begrudge women the few boosts they may get to try to balance the scales.

Yes, sorry, I missed your postive discrimination comment in OP.

The men are better with things, women are better with people point is obviously just such a load of bollocks too. Even if it were possible to make such a broad generalisation (which it’s not) has he not noticed that modern science has moved on a bit from model of the gentleman working alone at his country estate until he’s ready to come at present his findings at the Royal Society to rapturous acclaim. Interpersonal and team working skills are vital nowadays - some papers coming out of CERN list hundreds if not thousands of authors.

Don't apologise. It gave me the opportunity to look up some historical female physicists, I had forgotten about Emmy Noether!

I want to tell Mr Strumia that she was a physicist by invitation because it wasn't legal to pay a woman to teach in universities. And to ask him if he would have done his job for free... and if he will leave the legacy she did!

I do begrudge the leg-up I’m afraid. If the promotions were purely on academic ability there would be (in my experience) 2 fewer women in senior-ish academic positions. If that were replicated across the board maybe, just maybe, some thought would be given to the structural inequalities that led to that imbalance. Instead, the quota has been filled and evidence is given to numbats like this bloke.

And the particular women I’m thinking of provide little inspiration to younger women coming into academia - though this is acecdata. It’s obvious when you hear one of them talk of their career that they succeeded because they have a big age difference with their life partner (retired) and are child-free by choice. How does that inspire the majority of 25 year old women that it is possible to forge an academic career.

The 'leg ups' need to way be earlier than senior academic appointments, and more focussed on addressing structural sexism. More schemes like the one in my area, the Dorothy Hodgkin fellowships which support young researchers (of either sex) who have caring responsibilities type thing.

If the promotions were purely on academic ability there would be (in my experience) 2 fewer women in senior-ish academic positions

Really? You don’t think any of the men had a leg-up into their positions and got there on pure academic ability?

In my line of work I can think of plenty of mediocre men in positions of responsibility given a leg-up by having a wife have their babies and do the majority of the childcare.

In my line of work I can think of plenty of mediocre men in positions of responsibility given a leg-up by having a wife have their babies and do the majority of the childcare. Yep!

And many others who got a promotion simply because a woman was on maternity leave.

It is only women who ever have to make the children : career choice. A civilised society will work out a way to redress that imbalance!

This story and this man's behaviour towards women wanting a career in Physics has made me incredibly angry! How dare he. I cannot believe he can actively state his open misogyny and expect to continue unaffected. Just goes to show how institutionally sexist these sorts of places are, if he is totally comfortable to do this.

Just goes to show how institutionally sexist these sorts of places are, if he is totally comfortable to do this. Thanks for stating that. I have been mulling that over since I heard the news item... just couldn't quite get to that point!

Though he may find he was wrong in the slightly wider world of CERN.

When I was still in academia (years ago) I came across a study that showed very convincingly that women need to have one top-tier AND two second tier publications more than men, to be perceived as equally capable/hire-able.

Unfortunately I don't have access to that stuff anymore and can't find it easily.

Meanwhile, IFLS sums up that women do not need a leg up, they just need to stop having their legs all tied up.

The problem is much much earlier than the tenured positions I’m talking about.

So having finished a phd, the next stage (usually) in my field is at least 2 post-docs in 2 different (preferably international) labs. Post-docs are short fixed term contracts. Then you can start applying for permanent lectureships (tenure) probably in your late 20s, early 30s. Then there’s a huge push for research and publications literally continuously till professorship in late 30s, early 40s. Maternity leave in my area of research is very much not a thing at all. One can probably get away with a term away from lecturing but research output must be maintained.

It’s the structure of the short-term, no fixed abode post-docs followed by horrific pressure on those in junior lectureship posts that is unappealing to many young women (and me!) and it’s that early career structure that needs to be addressed.

Giving leg ups at tenure stage to women who aren’t as academically able is just obscuring the problem that the system has lost huge numbers of very academically able people (men and women) years earlier.

And I haven’t even started on the rants about aggressive ‘willy-waving’ (inc literally) behaviour I’ve seen at academic conferences... which is laughed along with, encouraged, participated in (apart from the literal willy waving) by many senior women because you succeed by being one of the boys.

Jeez. This is cathartic 😀

Just let it all out.

My memories of that are topped by a gentleman asking me what definition of 'motivation' I was using in my study... when the whole point of the bloody study, including the title of the paper I was submitting, in public on front of a few hundred people, was to find out what exercise participants thought word meant to them! His immediate neighbours nodded and 'yessed'. Women rows away from him threw their arms in the air!

He asked about 3 times... I eventually said " A dictionary definition, until we get to the conclusions" and he walked out!

A few years later I got a new job and I was his boss for about 2 years and I never mentioned it, not once!! I just smiled a lot!

I loved that job. Pity the funding ran out!

Ok, you said let it all out...my research area’s pretty niche, even within physical chem. There’s an annual international symposium, always held somewhere warm, that the ‘big names’ in the field all attend and up and coming PIs are invited together with phd students and junior post docs. Some good science gets done yada yada, but come the evenings it’s like the bloody Presidents club. If you looked at pictures of the invited attendees you’d get a completely skewed idea of the average beauty of junior physical chemists... because a couple of the really big names are complete arseholes who are known in the community to just use the annual symposium to select their next shag. If you’re ‘lucky’ enough to be selected and you manage to be ‘cool-girl’ enough about it, your next post-doc and probably future career is sorted. If you’re a PI (or more accurately, pimp) and your student is selected etc etc your next collaboration (and future career etc etc) is sorted.

Massive complaints were made a few years ago to the symposium’s funding body (a charitable foundation). Their solution? They no longer fund alcohol at evening events....the symposium continues.

Eeeeeeurgh!

That sounds far worse than anything I have ever endured, since I was about 19 and a waitress!

The slides are here.