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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rod Liddle: Trans twerps rewrite the facts of life, and even the Tories lap up their fiction

103 replies

TimeLady · 30/09/2018 07:26

Share token for Rod's column in the Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-twerps-rewrite-the-facts-of-life-and-even-the-tories-lap-up-their-fiction-pvl9p2br5?shareToken=358d56e57c162806b28fdd6bff4dd307]

Let's hope MPs, esp. Tory ones, are reading this.

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Gersemi · 30/09/2018 08:13

The question isn't really whether he's an ally to feminists - he's not - but whether articles like this will enrage and horrify Sunday Times readers, which they will.

The substantial danger is that the rage and horror may well not be directed at his targets but at people who hold similar views to Liddle.

TimeLady · 30/09/2018 08:15

I'd pay good money to see Dr H or any of the TRAs taking on Liddle Grin

They haven't the balls.

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overnightangel · 30/09/2018 08:16

Any woman worth their salt wouldn’t piss on Rod Liddle if he was on fire

AbsintheFriends · 30/09/2018 08:17

He's not trying to get 'our message' out there. But his message also highlights the danger and absurdity of the current stampede for inclusion, which people (especially those who aren't interested in 'our message') need to know.

cheesepretzel · 30/09/2018 08:18

I assume when people say be wary of allies, it relates to what may happen later. For example, esp in the USA, some Christian groups using it as a springboard to try and roll back lgb rights more generally.

SwearyG · 30/09/2018 08:19

Ocelot turn it round. Why can’t we say look - old school misogynists can see how bad an idea this is - that’s how fucking stupid self ID is. When someone who has such contempt for women can see the harm this does then everyone should be able to.

I stand by saying that we need to ditch the purity stuff. When we only allow agreement on all matters we end up in these kinds of messes. People should be allowed to have varied politics and specific views on single issues - arguing that it means we align with others in all ways is a very childish view of the way things work.

TimeLady · 30/09/2018 08:25

Why can’t we say look - old school misogynists can see how bad an idea this is - that’s how fucking stupid self ID is. When someone who has such contempt for women can see the harm this does then everyone should be able to.

And that's what needs to happen.

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ocelot41 · 30/09/2018 08:27

I do take on board the points made here about needing to have this conversation with a different audience. I really do. And my point wasn't anything like as well thought out as cheese. I am just really alarmed when I see women cheering men like this on, esp when they minimise what else they may have done and said. I know this man. I would leave a room to avoid him - swiftly. I can't minimise how he treats women. I can't cheer him on, in any sense.

ocelot41 · 30/09/2018 08:31

Perhaps, I am childish then Sweary. I don't think it's being a purist or failing to recognise a spectrum of political views in my case. The man was cautioned by the police for allegedly punching his pregnant girlfriend. Big Red Line.

KataraJean · 30/09/2018 08:38

I do not like Rod Liddle, and I think he comes at the issue from a different perspective (sexist men need to know who the woman are to be sure of their own position).
But I also think he hits the nail on the head for the right-wing - the snooty dismissal of identity politics and the left eating itself hides something actually serious which the right has caused and promotes which threatens women.
And sexists like Rod need to know who their women are.

Good old fashioned sexism is much easier to fight, we know how to do that; the ideology of (trans) gender which means all boundaries are collapsed is not.

This has taken me to a reflection on where the boundary collapsing scholarship on gender comes from. Feminists have, I think, used the idea of gendered hierarchies to lay structural hierarchies bare and how gendered ideas underpinned society. I do not know enough about queer scholarship, so I wonder if the boundary collapsing comes from there (again, with good intentions - same sex relationships should be no problem to society). What about endocrinology - that is, not postmodernism, but science?

The language of postmodernism has given us the means to interpret texts and social interactions in nuanced ways. I believe that much was lost with the eclipsing of woman’s studies by gender studies, but I do think understanding masculinities and intersectionality is a benefit, if de-politicising. After all, the way in which we analyse where the power lies and how it works comes from that, to a point.

And theories do not in themselves make an ideology. That needs the actions and beliefs of people. What about the endocrinologists who suggest pre-pubertal hormones as best practice; and the surgeons who perfected their techniques on intersex people and transferred their skills to those with gender dysphoria?

Identity politics is a cheap shot and an easy target for the right, but this is not about how people identify (most people on here do not care), it is about how far resources are developed and promotes to validate that identity. And women’s spaces, women’s descriptors, women’s physical appearance being seen as a resource.

To understand why women’s spaces, women’s descriptors, women’s appearances are seen as fair game, then we need the tools of gendered analysis to explain the historical and current power dynamics, hierarchies and ideals about women (as oppose to and related to men) which have come through postmodernism and are being enacted in science, medicine, the media and politics.

Understanding how and why this has happened is not as urgent as raising awareness that it has happened and arguing against it. But I guess I am trying to unpick and challenge the idea that this mess is a result of identity politics and the left eating itself. There is a much longer history of women’s health being thrown under the bus for pharmaceutical profits and women’s rights being ignored for male benefit than the rise of identity politics.

ocelot41 · 30/09/2018 08:43

Really thought provoking points Katara and the rest of this thread. I may pop on later to see how the mulling is going. Just stuff to do now, so this is not a flounce!

hilbobaggins · 30/09/2018 08:46

Oh good grief. I didn’t realise there had to be groupthink about who “we” align “ourselves” with. This kind of thinking is symptomatic of living your life in a bubble.

Most people do not spend their days thinking about misogyny in either its newer or older forms, and nobody I send this link to is going to start doing background checks into Rod Liddle’s feminist credentials to make sure they feel confident in “aligning” themselves with his his entire range of viewpoints.

It’s a well-written article that gets the message out. That’ll do.

MnerXX · 30/09/2018 08:55

It’s not going to be my favourite article. The description of Linda Bellos and the trial is not a comfortable read but the article covers the salient points very succinctly and it will peak trans more people. Whilst punching his pregnant girlfriend is horrific and I’m sure some of his other views are not aligned with mine, ignoring the article because of its origins, is not going to get us very far either.

TimeLady · 30/09/2018 09:06

I guess when males 'men-centre' things (as is their right), their take on events is likely to be different to ours.

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dolorsit · 30/09/2018 09:08

I have a confession.

About three years ago I agreed with Michael Gove.

I have ripped up my labour membership card and resigned in disgrace.

Or not...

No, I'm capable of being able to agree with some of the actions Gove took on becoming Justice Minister.

The battle we are in is not right vs left. I really despise the partisan path this country is following. I don't like Rod Liddle and I don't share many of his views but he speaks to people who would dismiss me as a "leftist feminist"

I am worried about the backlash and it infuriates me that this is being portrayed as leftist infighting when this is a Conservative led policy. However to stand against it is going to take a plurality of voices.

Liddle is just one of those voices.

arranfan · 30/09/2018 09:14

LIddle is an angry older man who speaks in the language of angry older men and is far more likely to persuade them to think about the issue and its wider implications than we would.

There are demographics who would welcome the implosion of established political parties or a reshuffle as factions disappear in an outbreak of internecine strife and a frenzy of identity politics. I fear this because that's how parties with rebarbative attitudes and policies appear 'out of nowhere'.

As PPs say, we acknowledge that Liddle has publicised an issue to a wide public who trust him. No alliance nor allegiance implied. I wonder if some of us are shaking our heads that it's Liddle who has to do this because we don't have Sophie Walker of WEP asking to write about it nor any of the Labour MPs. Conservative MPs (small in number) are tweeting and supporting.

Molokonono · 30/09/2018 09:15

I am a vegetarian

I have been a vegetarian for 34 years next month.

For the first decade and occasionally thereafter I was regularly harangued and the piss taken out of me for being a vegetarian because of Hitler.

We didn't have Godwin's law back then.

Sigh.

My way of thinking is that EVEN ROB LIDDLE GETS IT...and he has no reason to even want to get it.

ROD LIDDLE - siding with LINDA BELLOS???

FUCKING HELL. WHAT THE FUCK. ALL THE WTFs.

scepticalwoman · 30/09/2018 09:19

it is going to take a plurality of voices This .

TiaMariaAndCoke · 30/09/2018 09:21

His message is going out in the Sunday times - laid across the breakfast tables of middle England.

Not the Canary on a Tuesday afternoon.

LassWiADelicateAir · 30/09/2018 09:22

You know the kind of man who goes on about the left eating itself is just a massive prick

It is. I am a woman.

TimeLady · 30/09/2018 09:25

This is what Rod wrote in a Spectator article back in January, entitled Women come last in Labour’s deranged victim hierarchy

"This is the way identity politics always ends, with competing victims ripping each other limb from limb. Maybe one day the entire radical left will devour itself and all that remains will be a brownish, slightly damp stain on a sofa. There are plenty on the right who would argue that the wimmin are at last getting their come-uppance, having hogged the victimhood limelight for so long. And there’s a certain pleasure to be gained from seeing the likes of Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer comprehensively outvictimed.

But I still carry a torch for that second-wave feminism which is now under the cosh. Not a large torch, maybe, but a torch all the same. Its aims seemed to me laudable and its radicalism had about it a heady idealism rooted in the patent discrimination suffered by ordinary women in the home and in the workplace. To have men now insisting that the feminists, the Terfs, are the oppressors seems to me pushing it a bit. But that’s Momentum for you: resolutely male and not above bullying and hounding women who disagree with its views."

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/women-come-last-in-labours-deranged-victim-hierarchy/

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LassWiADelicateAir · 30/09/2018 09:25

About three years ago I agreed with Michael Gove

Access to books in prisons perhaps?

adulthumanfemail · 30/09/2018 09:27

Some screen shots

Rod Liddle: Trans twerps rewrite the facts of life, and even the Tories lap up their fiction
Rod Liddle: Trans twerps rewrite the facts of life, and even the Tories lap up their fiction
IrenetheQuaint · 30/09/2018 09:28

I have divided views on this. On the one hand, yes it is good that Middle England gets to hear about the trans shenanigans.

On the other hand, Liddle is a total misogynist and also an actual transphobe - from his previous columns it is clear that he is physically repulsed by transwomen and very happy to mock their appearance. I fear that his comments will add fuel to all the TRAs who think everyone gender critical is also massively transphobic.

I much prefer the thoughtful approach of Janice Turner in The Times.

UpstartCrow · 30/09/2018 09:29

I'm really against the idea that people can't share or discuss articles written by people we don't agree with. That's how you end up with an echo chamber.

If the title of the thread had been Rod Liddle, Feminist Ally Says; and then OP had twaddled on about how marvelous he was, I would have taken umbrage.

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