Raising children

[peaktrans]

So feminism is seeking new to me! Thank you MN for contributing to my awareness.

What I'm struggling with is how as a Mum/parent we raise our children best? I have DS who is 2. DH & I both work, share childcare & housework etc. I think we both give good examples of equality. However I constantly find people saying that "he's so active because he's a boy/he talks less because he's a boy". We let him pick toys he likes yet he's gifted cars/trucks etc.

How do I raise him to remove the gender stereotypes/influences when the world around us is so keen to pigeon hole? Also as much as we show equality DH always opens doors for me & carries heavier bags.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense however it does concern me incase we don't set him the best examples

Hi peaktrans
Sorry that your post hasn't been responded to by the MN feminist chat group however the posters here are devoting their time to the anti transgender witch hunt which predominates on this site.
Mums net feminism has moved away from working towards an equality between us all to a hatred towards those that were born male andare progressing vtowards becoming female.
So God help any of our children being trans looking towards the mn posters for support

Sounds like you're doing ok.
IME there's a rush of stereotypes when a child starts school - girls can't do this, boys can do that - and being aware of this and have some answers ready for when it happens.
If people bring up stereotypes in front of him you can always counter what's being said.

Fee that's bollocks, and I've noticed that you have nothing to add to the op rather than some TRA nonsense!

What sort of toys does your ds choose himself, does he pick cars and trucks. You complain about pigeon holing yet allow your husband to open doors and carry the heavy bags have you tried reversing this or asking him to stop?

I'm quite content to be equal - at the very least - with a man who opens doors and carries bags for me.

Op you sound as though you are doing fine. Don't worry about it, your boys will grow up and discover things for themselves.

My DS was into pink stuff etc his best friend was a girl. I just went with the flow. Didn’t have no hippy gender fluid ideas. I remember being more pissedoff he preferred playing with stuff he wasn’t rather than toys he played with.

I taught both my kids (one being very old now) underwear rule. Fine to show ur bum at home but the shopping delivery person doesn’t want to see it.

My DS & DD are taught same, everyone pitches in around the home, everyone entitled to believe what they want, don’t dismiss religion as bollocks until you learnt about all of them. You want to play with boys fine, you want to play with girls fine. Be nice walk away from those that are horrible. Basically be your own person. Don’t use others to get ahead. Also my youngest I’m still teaching that same sex can have relationships and be married... which is tricky at the moment given that he going through that girls are eww at the moment faze.

What I won’t be teaching them is ‘gender fluid’ crap. That he is a ‘feeling’ of gender conditioned by society. Yes I’m a bigot & terf girs are girls, boys are boys. And no boys do not have babies they only help make them.

Challenge stereotypes when you can. Carry on buying him a mix of toys he likes - he won't be harmed by an excess of trucks any more than my DD was by a drawerful of birthday present Barbies, so long as that's not his only option.

I think so long as you're aware of the issue and try to set a good example it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% perfect.

*playing with stuff he wasn’t meant to ie my expensive pans rather than toys

Omg he talks less because he’s a boy. Crap wana swap with my DS he doesn’t stop talking. My DD is like me she like quiet.

What sort of toys does your ds choose himself, does he pick cars and trucks

Let him pick what he wants- which you are doing anyway.

You complain about pigeon holing yet allow your husband to open doors and carry the heavy bags have you tried reversing this or asking him to stop?

There are 2 issues being wrongly conflated here.

The person most able to carry heavy bags should carry them. It is not reinforcing gender stereotyping just because that person in a heterosexual couple is likely to be a man.

Unless one has a physical disability (or is burdened by carrying heavy bags) no one needs to have a door opened for them. It is polite if the person who gets to the door first opens it and holds it open but there is no reason why that should always be a man.

I've always politely challenged people saying stuff like "he/she does X more because they're a boy/girl" with me it's girls because I have DDs although both DDs have been mistaken for boys a lot when little because I dress them fairly gender neutrally. People are often horrified when they "misgender" my toddler but I always say "well, they're all the same except for the internal plumbing at this age, aren't they?" because they are. They all have their little distinct personalities but it's got nothing to do with their biological sex (apart from the boys peeing in your eye when you change their nappies of course, which i'm quite glad I avoided). There was a BBC programme about this recently I think where people totally changed the way they treated and perceived the same babies when they were told they were female / male? Can't remember the details...sorry.

I think it's about observing the unequal ways people behave and discussing it (obviously in an age appropriate way). DH always makes sure he has the pink cup and has a pink shirt and stuff like that too (bless him, not sure if he really likes pink or not!), so if anyone tries to convince either DD that only girls like pink they just look incredulous.

To be honest sounds like you're doing a good job. With gifts I try and encourage everyone to just buy books. I always say I'm anti-plastic (I am for many reasons,the main one being we have enough piles of plastic already thanks) which also helps as for some reason the really awfully sex-stereotypical toys tend also to be plastic tat (in my opinion).

Having raised my 4 children in the gender neutral 90's and 00's - compared to now - and having a new grandson that my DD is very keen to raise as gender neutral as possible I can understand your difficulties.

Neither of my sons wear 'mens' clothes and wear what they want but from 'women's' ranges. They prefer the colours, fabric and fit. They both dress traditionally male (one less so but still has a full beard).

Equality isn't about running against men in the same race, so it's not about a smaller female carrying the heavy shopping bags when it's not such a big load for a larger male. That's kindness and consideration, both qualities we want our sons (and daughters) to have.

Mostly it's about choice and challenging long held views; Why is pink so offensive for boys? Why are cars boys toys? Why are boys clothes dull and have aggressive predatory creatures on them whilst girls have prey type cuddly animals on them?

There are no boys toys. There are no girls toys. There are only toys.

I wanted my sons and daughters to have ALL the experiences I could give them. The girls had tools, action figures and both learned to fly, shoot and both do DIY and outdoor pursuits but they also like heels, nail varnish (doesn't last a day) and other things that might be considered feminine. Both girls love sport.

Both my sons cook, wear nail varnish (one wears full make up) and like interior design, one studied childcare to level 3, but also garden, do outdoor pursuits and building work. Both hate sport.

Boys organised sport, in my opinion, is fairly toxic. As I say in my opinion. My sons did not participate and my DD doesn't want her son to either. There are plenty of sports that don't have the toxicity that we believe football, rugby etc have.

Challenging your own long held beliefs is the first step. Family members are much harder.

Re the 'carrying heavier stuff' - I don't see any problem at all with the physically stronger person carrying the heavier load. That's just sensible. There can be a problem if women avoid carrying what they could iyswim. The flip side of this is blokes who feign helplessness at 'feminine' tasks they'd be perfectly capable of doing.

It doesn't matter who does which jobs or takes on which role. It does matter that either can do any job or role that they choose. So allow and encourage your dc to try anything. Model curiosity and initiative. Teach your dc to understand the difference between sex and gender roles.

Model good manners and consideration for all classes of people. Both parents should treat each other with affection and courtesy.

Talk to them about freedom of choice and taking responsibility for your own choices. And model it, too, of course.

Both of you should be informed about sensitive issues, such as puberty in the other sex, so that you can support your dc without confusion or embarrassment. Respect, also, the special understanding there may be between parent and child of the same sex, without feeling excluded.

Accept that your dc may have different opinions to you as they grow up. You can only teach and model the values that you think are important. Then you have to let them work the rest out for themselves.

This is interesting. I was considering starting a thread to help me organise my thoughts on a related topic.

Looking back on my childhood (only girl with several brothers), both my parents raised me to believe that girls (and I assume boys) could do what ever they wanted to do (in terms of activity and achievement). I never grew up with the idea that boys do this and girls do that. There was little to no difference in gender expectations for me.

I am beginning to think that as a society we have regressed. Now girls wear pink dresses and play with dolls. If you wear blue trousers and play with cars then you must be a boy (or trans).

Basically, when I was younger, gender stereotypes existed but were there to be broken or flagrantly denied. Now gender conformity is expected and if you don’t conform, then you need to redefine your gender.

Any thoughts?

Thank you everyone for helpful replies. Challenging stereotypes seems to be the biggest thing, while he is still young. Without drip-feeding I remember being young & being told Santa wouldn't bring me a train set as he on,y made them for little boys. However he did bring me. barber I hadn't asked for! I think that's why I'm partially sensitive to the time issue.

I actually attended a single sex high school, it was academically high performing. We were told that girls boys can do anything with hard work. That still resonates with me & we had amazing role models on career days etc. However in my 30s/early 40s I find so many women choosing to take a backseat to the careers of their DPs because they feel they have to.

I dint want DS to feel he can it can't open a door, I want him to be comfortable as a child playing like a child, not being encouraged to be rough because that's "what boys do". I also want him to be aware of social issues. I suppose I worry that even if in our home we set positive examples that social influences will affect him negatively. Yet I also know social influences are a reality.

I suppose this thread has helped me get my thoughts written down yet I still feel a bit worried

uncreative it's hard isn't it! I just want to help him be an amazing person.

There's nothing wrong with stereotypes - provided that they are not imposed upon people, consciously or unconsciously.

I think at that age, as well as providing a wide range of toys ( cleaning set? Dolls house?) the other thing you can do is be really alert to the sex balance in books. So many books (dear zoo, for example) are all male, when there is no need. So change the pronouns! I regularly have two little pigs going round to their sisters (brick) house, for example.

I think it's the conscious or unconscious imposition that makes something a stereotype, rather than just acceptance that there may be a few things that one group of people is on average likely to be better at/prefer to another group.

I also think you are doing well . The most important thing is that he sees a loving and equal relationship modelled in his home .

That he doesn’t see you doing all the dogsbody, Unrewarding and unfulfilling work while your husband does the interesting, rewarding and paid work .

You and your husband need to challenge any unpleasant stereotypes you hear from family about your work situation. I know your DS is too young to understand now but you can’t let it go now and then start when he’s 6.

Opening doors for other people is good manners, I encourage all my children to do this for people. I would never take issue with a man who does it for me and I open doors and give up seats for anyone who needs it more than me - disabled people, very pregnant women, elderly people , those carrying toddlers etc .

It’s irelevant to feminism IMO.

In your situation I’d be more concerned about wifework and emotional labour and making sure that you and your husband share this.

I’d also challenge any stereotypes from friends politely .

“ oh he’s so full of energy, boys are like that “

“ actually lots of toddlers are like that, boys and girls “.

“Isn’t that funny, he’s playing with Emma’s doll! “
“ He probably thinks it’s his as he has one just like that at home” .

The hard stare and smile are the important bit. If you sound remotely apologetic or feel you have to explain in some way, they will sense your uncertainty and start to argue with you. So be polite but firm.

As long as you provide a variety of toys , your child will play with them. This happens naturally in families with boys and girls.

You are right about social influences , they are huge.

Your child will constantly come back from school saying shit like “ the girls wanted to play football with us today but we would let them “ .

So you will need to constantly challenge these. However you will be an expert by then after years of dealing with it from friends and family

Yes, do try and challenge comments made “because he’s a boy” - boys and girls can be quiet or loud, or like particular toys.
If you model equality and challenge sexism at home, that will be his norm.

There's a very interesting book called feminist parenting (can't remember the author but could find it on my bookshelf if you want). One of the topics I remember being discussed is teaching the value of consent from an early age. It discusses forcing a child to wear a coat (when they are inside and they are warm but can't understand that it's cold outside) rather than risking a cold and letting them see cause and effect (e.g. once they go outside it is cold and you ask them again if they would like to wear a coat) and showing that their option to consent is valid. Same with forcing food and new experiences on them. Important to both boys and girls to teach about consent for later in life. There's lots of little anecdotes like that throughout. Also instead of using descriptive words like "you are a very naughty boy" you can change your language to "you did a very naughty thing" which can help stop labelling of kids in blame form showing they can change their actions. Feminism covers a range of topics outside gendered toys although it's a good place to start. Having a range of diverse storybooks with different types of families and characters (e.g. female surgeons, stay at home dad's, disabled athletes, multiracial and cultural families) can also teach them a world view without prejudice.

This is a tough one and I think it becomes more pronounced when they start nursery and primary school- pink stinks, girls toys, etc. I guess you have to let them have their own choices (being aware that society is channeling them into a narrow idea) and keep promoting sex equality. My DD said the other day that women don't drive (I don't). So i said oh that's odd, I thought your aunt drives. Oh yes, she said. And your DGM drives. Oh, yes, she said. And so on. Now she tells her dad, oh ladies drive too! And he says, yes, they do. When she likes a colour, all of us say, that's a nice colour, regardless of what it is. We don't steer them into liking one colour or another. My teenaged son deliberately wears pink sometimes to remind the younger two that boys can wear pink too.
I think what is most important is shaping of language, so I called my son a big strong boy, I call my daughters a big strong girl - I tell them all they are brave and strong and clever. I think also it is important to teach boundaries, for both sexes. That needs to start young. Kids don't get touched without their consent, they don't touch their peers without consent.

We have a traditional set up - I am a SAHM - and 3 DDs, so I'm very conscious of this. We just have toys, not "girls" toys. I try really hard to make characters in stories more balanced between males and females - easier when DD1 couldn't read, now I try and buy books with women in. I let them have clothes from either section and steer away from overly pink and frilly for practical reasons. However if DD genuinely likes the pink top better than the blue that's fine too. I also try to model having hobbies / friends outside of the DC and DH and DH is very aware of calling the stuff I do at home / for PTA / charity work "work" and expressly valuing my unpaid contribution.

I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging biological reality though. DH carries bags more often as I'm pregnant (and physically smaller). DH weighs over 1.5 times what I do and walks 5 miles a day to / from work so needs a bigger dinner. I have breastfed all the kids until 2ish but made it clear it's something I'm proud of and want to do, while obviously daddy can't do it too as he's a man. I think "not seeing sex" / "sex doesn't matter" is quite damaging too; gender on the other hand is just personality and can be ignored much of the time (while being aware of damaging socialisation and cultural norms).