Talking with kids about transgender issues

[TheSteveMilliband]

So I have 2 DS aged 8 and 11. Whilst they're in primary they are pretty well protected (small school). I know that when they hit the huge secondary they will be hearing a lot more views other than mine.
Even now, their language sometimes surprises me, talking about someone having "gender issues". Ds2 is not typically gender conforming either, luckily he is confident, but want him to have a good grounding / understanding before he is subject to the views of activists.
When did you start having these discussions and how? So far it's just been emphasising that there is no "girl or boy toys ", just things you like or don't. When do kids start picking up the party lines (that TWAW, that you can choose to be girl or boy etc.)?

Horrifyingly I unwittingly started my post with "So..."
I hate this! I want an edit button!

I just simplify everything and say that boys liking dresses and dolls is fine and girls liking football and science is fine but girls are girls and boys are boys. When you go into greater detail about toilets and showers is up to you according to your childs age and level of maturity.

My kids are both about a year older than yours & I have lately found myself being a bit more explicit - so I've been saying no one can change sex but you can do/wear whatever you like. My DD12 has been asked for her preferred pronouns at summer camp & I'm not sure how I feel about that, to be honest. I do want to give them a broad perspective before they are plunged into TWAW without an alternative viewpoint.

Thanks littlemouseroar- pretty much what I'm doing, and haven't had reason (yet) to talk further. Suppose I'm apprehensive about secondary school and the messages out there that I'll be less aware of as they get more independent. Think they will now start getting taught about trans issues in yr 7 as part of the sex Ed curriculum.

That's exactly it clambering. It's knowing they have a basic understanding before they're confronted with the TWAW orthodoxy.

I think I was lucky; when the DC's were growing up we all had various pets, so sexing the animals to manage breeding was an issue. We had to learn how to tell the sex of several species, and how to tell when the females were in season.
At the same time we were relaxed about what people wore or what they liked to do.

They are now completely matter of fact about it. They are happy to accept people the way they are, they have a wide range of friends; but don't believe anyone can change sex.

I also think it's important to speak your kids about gender issues. Firstly as you say, messages from school can be one-sided and secondly not to underestimate how widespread it is - my teen has 2 trans friends - and how gender issues can impact young people's mental health and anxiety levels.
The Times columnist Susie Godson has written a book and created an app called 'Meetoo' to tackle teen anxiety. In her interview in The Times last week she said: I I think some of the language we use around mental health and LGBT may be causing young people to overthink or pathologise feelings that are actually normal and age-appropriate." &
^“They want to know what they are they want a label: 'Am I pan, bi, gay, trans?' So you get posts, some of which can appear quite baffling, saying, 'I'm a girl, but I feel like a gay man,' or 'Is there a sexuality in between heteroflexible and bisexual?' and 'I think I might be biromantic!"
Kids clearly may need some guidance dealing with all this.

Popeye used to say "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam!"

I think it's a good basis on which we should be building children's - and everyone's - notion of 'identity'.

Parents need to be checking what schools are telling their children and especially what organisations they are using for advice. The new draft SRE guidelines have some excellent advice for schools about checking the credentials of visitors working in their schools, looking at and checking all materials in advance and ensuring that safeguarding is fully complied with.
Any school inviting in organisations that breach safeguarding in the manner that certain organisations currently do will be in serious difficulties if children and teenagers are put at risk from dangerous advice - whether it is promoting the use of untested drugs on teenagers, telling teachers to keep confidences or advocating parental alienation.

Someone I know recently had to speak to teens about issues on the broad spectrum related to this. They said it was amazing the lengths the teens would go to in order not to accept that there are 2 sexes (even if we accept there are lots of genders or none). When asking them to think critically about it he brought up reproduction - that even if you took away all boundaries and everything was gender fluid and ‘equal’ you would still need 2 sexes to reproduce as humans. Apparently they later went on to suggest that in a hypothetical future people could have their sperm and eggs harvested to get around that ‘problem’...

My friend directed them towards a reading list of dystopian fiction as to why they might want to rethink that Brave New World!

It’s quite frightening, really, if children are being asked to believe that biological reality is somehow optional, mutable, something to be challenged.

My son asked me at age 2 when he would become a Woman. (No idea where that came from, he has always been almost ridiculously gender conforming in his preferences, even though me and his dad are not). I told him at that time that it was impossible to change sex but people should be able to dress as they like, and I find the idea that only girls can wear dresses silly. Now with 7 I read an article about transkids, and he asked me what I was reading. So I told him, some kids (and also some grown ups) want to change sex. He asked me whether that was good or bad. I answered: well, it is difficult. For kids it is easy at first, changing names, hairstyles, clothes. But later come medical procedures, and none of them can really change sex, so that is hard. I also told him to not say to these kids, if he ever meets any, that they are not really the other sex and can‘t become it. That would be cruel, and the fault lies with those adults who lie to the kids, not with the kids, anyway. He got it.

Nosquirrels - don't want them to get to that stage! Isn't that an indictment of current understanding / learning of gender, that's awful! When do you talk about the nitty gritty of surgery / hormone blockers? Tbh even the thought of being asked their pronouns is terrifying, ds2 would absolutely say she/her, not because of any dysphoria but because his pals are girls and he likes unicorns - yay. Eldest is 100% gender conforming but picks things up so expecting a change when he starts secondary next year so need to be prepared

Well my Dds (4,7) both have girls in their year at school that have transitioned to boys over the last few months, so we've been forced into it earlier than seems sane.

When I'm leading the conversation, I try to take the same approach as I would an unusual religious practice, that it isn't true but there are so many unusual things people believe because it makes them happier.

When they throw comments at me like "child X says girls are pathetic" I tend to react in a less diplomatic way. I also find I'm disproportionately angry with the parents when this happens as their lack of correction has meant so many other people are picking up the pieces.

4 and 7 - that's crazy. Do you mind me asking what kind of area you live in? Down south? City? That's a really useful analogy - it seems a quasi religious belief - thanks for that.

I'm extremely lucky. My eldest DD went to schools where this kind of nonsense never came up. She's now in her mid-teens and it still hasn't come up. Probably because she's at a single-sex independent faith school.

It makes me rage that you have to be able to have money, either for private schools or to home-school to escape this ideology.

Anyway. I have talked to her about it and being very literal minded she thought it was a big load of horse shit and couldn't get her head around the science of it all. She couldn't understand how people could be born in the wrong bodies. She has never conformed to any kind of stereotype - hated dolls, princesses etc and now as a teen has zero interest in clothes, make-up, pop music or social media. Much to my relief.

She's also very kind, extremely kind in fact and very compassionate, so she would be exactly the type of girl who would either let her boundaries be crossed, or who in all honesty, would wet herself or give herself bladder problems by not going to the loo, because her reaction was that boys who think they are girls would give her the creeps.

Not learned hate, just an intuitive reaction. However we did then have a long chat about prejudice and the fact that people are suffering from a very debilitating mental condition. That's the way I would broach it with children. Explain to them that some people think x, but that actually it's not true and that we should always exercise compassion, not call people names but at the same time, especially girls, we should not be ashamed of, or afraid of our boundaries. We shouldn't have to get naked in front of men, unless we want to.

City centre, university heavy part of the city, very left wing, multicultural in a religious/ethnicity sense but nobody extreme. So middle class, liberal people who look diverse on paper but are really quite similar. You won't find a Trump or Brexit supporter, and Tories keep it quiet.

However, most people here think (in a non public way) that these kids are too young and the parents are irresponsible, so there's hope.

I'm surprised you're surprised. I only found you after this happened and you all seemed to be far ahead of me that I assumed it was fairly common, like 1 or 2 kids per primary. We have 3 in total.

I tried to be so nice and waited for it to just be normal, thinking of these girls like boys but it hasn't come to me or my DDs.

Came across the best way of describing what is going on to lo today. There is a ty toy cat with a horn on the top. The rubbish with it said that it had been born a cat but magic had given it a horn and now it was a unicorn. I explained that no it was not a unicorn, it is clearly still a cat, as unicorns look like horses. In this way, I was able to explain how men who change themselves or wear dresses are not women. Wondering now, why did ty think that kind of rubbish is acceptable?

Teach them straightforward truth. They are old enough already.
Teach them:
That people are either male or female according to their biology.

That biology and society influence our behaviour and our needs.
That society imposes sex-specific behaviour patterns upon us, and this also affects our thinking. This is gender.
That gender is not a feeling or an identity.
That nobody is obliged to conform to gendered expectations. They can express themselves as they wish, as long as they do not cause harm to others.
That girl/woman = juvenile/adult human female and boy/man = juvenile/adult human male.
That sometimes people can feel unhappy or confused about themselves and how their feelings and thoughts fit with their body and societies gendered expectations of them. Such people need to explore this further, with support. Usually they will come to terms with whatever is bothering them, but sometimes adults may end up modifying their bodies to better fit with their feelings.

That this change does not change their sex: they remain their original sex, but may look and feel more similar to the other sex.
That everybody deserves courtesy. That everybody has the right to privacy and dignity.
That if they encounter someone who makes them feel uncomfortable they should always tell you about it as soon as possible, no matter what others may say about it.

Pawsome - conscious that kids are in fairly trad small, CofE school where ds2 is probably the most GNC child (certainly boy) so not really representative! I am a bit shocked though. Not even sure what trans at 4 means? Reassuring that people are quietly questioning. Will all be different at secondary.

Jelly slice, think you're right that need to be more explicit and clear. Feels a bit woolly so far, and for all the "just things" talk which has sunk in, the messages from everywhere reinforce the girls vs boys binary and will no doubt gain more traction as they get older. Especially when ds1 states that ds2 has "gender issues" (not meanly, but reflects what he's picking up from school).

Makes me really angry that we even have to deal with this shit. Kids should be able to be what the fuck they want without worrying about pressure to be someone else or transition.

Trans at four means that they started their child at school as the opposite sex in terms of name, pronouns, clothing, hair, toilets etc. They are also ignoring the fact that the issues they used to justify it (eg child slightly anxious/hitting others) have been made worse (now more anxious and more hitting). This is a bad area for it, there are similar stories from other local schools.

I have wondered about the role of parenting at this age, the child I know is very much in control of their family in terms of when and where they sleep, what they eat, what the parents are allowed to do etc. The child cant be relied upon for party invites or play dates as the parent will quite happily pull out if the child decides not to go last minute. The family wouldn't tolerate anyone doing this to their child. I don't think they are like this because they have trans child, I think they have encouraged their childs opinion because they can't bring themselves to correct them, ever. I swear, if their child said that 2+2=5, they would maybe compromise at 4.5, probably nearer 4.9. I don't know the other family but they have a nightmare reputation for similar things (pre-transing). Both children have a reputation for being spoilt, not vulnerable, which goes against what I'd have expected in theory. It seems very different to the teenage risks and you're right that I think high school will be different.

I am telling my children the truth, but not in a way that they will feel it is a battle to fight or even a big deal. I wouldn't want my children telling a christian child that god didn't exist any more than a trans child being told they are really a boy/girl. It's not nice and the children aren't at the root of the problem, they are victims of it. The whole thing is just so sad.

Can I clear something up being transgender or not conforming to the gender you were assigned at birth is not a choice would you choose to be hated on bullied and ridiculed by your peers?

sorry ryan, I'm not clear what your question is - are you asking us whether being transgender, or being gender-non-conforming, is a choice or not? Or just one of these?

Like Jellyslice says. Be clear, be factual and empower your kids to think about this and make up their own minds.
Don't wait.
My DD is 12 and we have talked about this a lot already. She understands that an awful lot of what gets described as 'transphobia' is actually women just expressing their concerns.

to the gender you were assigned at birth

Nobody is assigned a gender at birth.

Gender is a cultural concept, not a medical one.

would you choose to be hated on bullied and ridiculed by your peers?

Women have been legally prevented from earning a living and accessing education for centuries.

In 1914 a court ruled that a woman could not become a solicitor because the word 'person' does not include women.

first100years.org.uk/a-woman-is-not-a-person-a-review-of-bebb-v-the-law-society-1914/

However, in 1922 the first women became solicitors, not by claiming to be men but refusing to conform to gender expectations.

Nobody should be shoved into a gender box.

Tragically, Gwyneth Bebb, one of the women who brought the original 1914 case, did not become a solicitor. She died in childbirth at the age of 31. Gender is an artificial construct, but biological sex is not. Women need specific rights, protections and services because of sex, not identity - and that is what I tell my daughter.

Both of my kids have been raised to know that their sex doesn't dictate how they dress, wear their hair, or act. They are also very clear on biology - I've always answered questions clearly (in age-appropriate ways) and given them proper info and language on bodies and functions.

As my son (10) is shortly due some school sex-ed, I've mentioned that some people think they are the opposite sex, and that we are to be kind and not argue with them. I expect he already has a fairly good understanding of the biology of sex - the gender ideology, however, is something I've felt I have to prepare him for.

As said above, I'm treating it as I do religion - 'some people think that' and we are always kind and polite. But I'm pretty clear, I think, that it's a daft theory that doesn't hold up to reason.