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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being GC and fearing for your job

96 replies

JellySlice · 29/09/2018 08:54

I work in a field where posters frequently say that they fear for their jobs if they are openly GC. This has made me hesitate about 'coming out' myself.

But are our jobs really at risk? Can you be fired for holding or expressing a particular opinion or belief?

I can't help wondering whether this is, in fact, another example of female socialisation against expressing strong, potentially contrary opinions. 'Men are forceful, women are pliant'.

And I'm not knocking this worry, I understand that it's genuine. But I also want to understand the reason and be fully armed before I stand up to be counted at work.

OP posts:
Melanippe · 29/09/2018 17:28

In my previous job, I could have been subject to summary dismissal for gross misconduct under their social media policy. In my present role, I think things might be easier, but if things don't start becoming more sensible with regard to safeguarding, then I'll be looking for something else anyway, because I can't, in all good conscience, continue to advise people on safeguarding if the whole concept is going down the pipes. It's not my whole job, but is part of the package I'm expected to deliver.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/09/2018 17:29

Meant to add, good for you MoseShrute. I hope you can hold on until the tide turns.

Melanippe · 29/09/2018 17:29

Oh, and I'd forgotten the "affirmation only" model we'll soon be expected to use. So yes, a new job in a different sector soon, if things don't change

TiaMariaAndCoke · 29/09/2018 17:35

I am thoroughly enjoying moseshrute's professional diagnosis of TRAs: "stupid fuckers". Grin

MoseShrute · 29/09/2018 22:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/09/2018 22:30
Flowers
NameChangedAgain18 · 29/09/2018 22:48

After decades in the industry I have begun to wonder if I'm as bad as people who sell cigarettes and alcohol. I don't really know anymore if university is a "good" thing to sell to young people.

The same realisation hit me like a truck a couple of months ago. Not that particular analogy (selling cigarettes) but the dawning knowledge that I’m now involved in a sector which is pushing a harmful ideology onto vulnerable people. Those pushing it are far from vulnerable themselves, they are privileged and some of them are also assertive about their sexual predilections. They don’t give a shit about working class, female, BAME, etc people who’ll be shut out of public life because of some pomo bullshit invented by a bunch of poseur academics too lazy or intellectually challenged to engage in actual research.

arranfan · 29/09/2018 23:07

I posted this on the wrong thread (with a similar title).

-
Here's one perspective on people's sense of job security. There have been so many modifications to the Welfare State's safety-net that I don't know anyone who thinks that it would provide for them if they lost a job and couldn't readily pick up another one.

We have a class known as the precariat - living from one tranche of income to the next and worrying endlessly when that income will disappear.

A reviewer criticised Snyder's On Tyranny as less of a scrutiny of tyranny itself and more of an essay about how we might stop it from happening. The reviewer argues that Snyder's concerns about needing to comply with authoritarian demands to retain a job and sense of social security are misplaced and any equivalences are false.

“Do not obey in advance,” (Snyder) says. “Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given.” After Hitler came to power, many if not most Germans voluntarily offered their obedience to his regime. We should heed this warning and refuse to do so ourselves. And certainly, the millions of state servants who ran Germany did indeed rush to join the Nazi party to save their jobs. Later on, few opposed the growing antisemitism of the regime or its genocidal outcome. But Snyder forgets the degree of coercion to which they were subjected. It was no easy thing to risk your job when over a third of the workforce was unemployed, as it was in 1933. Hundreds of thousands of Nazi stormtroopers were roaming the streets beating up and killing the Social Democrats and Communists who were the regime’s main opponents. Up to 200,000 people, overwhelmingly those on the political left, were thrown into concentration camps and brutally mistreated. The great mass of Germans did not obey in advance: they obeyed when tyranny had already set up its tent.

I don't think it's overblown.

Do you think any of the lower ranks of female staff in Credit Suisse would feel supported and able to criticise Pip Bunce and the way PB flouts a dress code that would probably bring them a severe reprimand for transgressing? Do you think all of the women there are happy about what has happened to their facilities?

Following the TUC vote - do you think that women in many places would be confident their unions would have their backs and support their GC views?

Look at Kennedy and the TRAs who are trying to get GC staff ousted from university posts.

You don't need a visible army in the streets if you know your colleagues and various people are ready to police your language/thoughts and go after your livelihood. Look at Adrian Harrop's activities in re: Labour appointments.

We are being asked to be obedient if we have to accept things that we know to contravene science, law, and reason itself. We have our compliance compelled if we are instructed to deny our experience and pretend that we do not see any safeguarding implications for women and children.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/09/2018 23:24

We are being asked to be obedient if we have to accept things that we know to contravene science, law, and reason itself

Yes

MistressFunbox · 29/09/2018 23:34

I'm not so worried about the management as I think I can get most of them on side if it comes down to it and I have personal credibility which helps. I also feel from my position I can argue for compromises like additional facilities which I have no issue with.

I worry about a campaign from the students and where that would leave me. I'd take it to court if I have to but I wouldn't get another job and I simply can't afford that.

Jeanhatchet · 30/09/2018 01:55

If you are a Member of a Union you can hold a "protected philosophical belief". A feminist belief can be deemed as such. Also - on this basis a refusal to endorse a position for which there is no convincing evidence currently available - ie - that men can change sex and become women - is completely defensible a a protected philosophical belief.

More of us need to test this and more unions will
Be asked to I imagine.

Bluntness100 · 30/09/2018 02:04

Diversity and inclusion is important to most companies and organisations, as such, your View point, if it goes against this, when a "reasonable person" would not see you at risk, then I would expect you to be either dismissed or managed out depending on how you handled it and now vocal you were.

I would also not take the approach of talking to other women quietly as suggested, because you run the very real and significant risk they do not agree with you and report you.

So I guess rhe question is how important is it to you.

Charliethefeminist · 30/09/2018 04:09

Thank you Jean

JellySlice · 30/09/2018 07:53

If you are a Member of a Union you can hold a "protected philosophical belief".

Why do you have to be a member of a union to be allowed to hold a protected philosophical belief? Surely that is discriminatory of itself?

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NameChangedAgain18 · 30/09/2018 10:06

No, the philosophical belief is a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act. Uniion membership is not relevant. In fact, seeing how my union has carried on over self-ID, I wouldn’t count on them to support my feminist beliefs if push came to shove. Quite the opposite.

hipsterfun · 30/09/2018 10:06

I would also not take the approach of talking to other women quietly as suggested, because you run the very real and significant risk they do not agree with you and report you.

Women! Fear denouncements!

NopeNi · 30/09/2018 10:13

Ah, bluntness telling us all to shut up again. What larks.

Charliethefeminist · 30/09/2018 10:27

There's a difference between being outwardly GC and being inwardly GC. I'm inwardly GC ie vocal at work, irritating to managers, asking for meetings etc etc blah blah. Outwardly - it's a total ban. So it's a choice. Try to change things from the inside or take to the streets from the outside?

arranfan · 30/09/2018 10:28

MoseShrute wrote: The problem with that is that my colleagues get dumped on having to pick up my slack, and also as the only GC psychiatrist in my trust, these individuals will all get referred on by other drs and l genuinely feel its not in their best interests

GICs to be renamed ‘Gender Dysphoria Clinics’ - if I understand this correctly, people will be able to self-refer to GDCs and bypass even their GPs?

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1045622430759350272.html

JellySlice · 30/09/2018 13:55

I'm sure that 'philosophical belief ' in the EA refers to religious freedom, but I've often thought that it would be a useful defence against trans ideology. My religion states that God created mankind, "male and female He created them", also "Thou shalt not lie", and "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and "Thou shalt not covet..." . Similarly, "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and "Treat others as you would be treated". All principles which guide my everyday life, including my attitudes towards trans ideology.

While I am a secular Evolutionist, I am also an actively practicing member of my religion. Being obliged to follow trans ideology would be contrary to my religion and would be discrimination based upon my protected characteristic of philosophical belief.

(Cue TRAs screaming that the Abrahamic religions are transphobic, leading to more anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim attacks. Cynical, much?)

OP posts:
NameChangedAgain18 · 30/09/2018 15:26

JellySlice - the EA refers to religious and philosophical belief, including lack of religious belief. It’s not clear to me what constitutes a philosophical belief as far as the EA is concerned, though, and whether feminism would come under this category. There’s something written by a law firm here:

andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/what-is-a-philosophical-belief/

JellySlice · 30/09/2018 16:32

(i) The belief must be genuinely held.

Feminism - tick
Genderism - sometimes
Religion - sometimes

(ii) It must be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available.

Feminism - sometimes
Genderism - tick
Religion - tick

(iii) It must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.

Feminism - tick
Genderism - tick
Religion - tick

(iv) It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.

Feminism- tick
Genderism - tick
Religion - tick

(v) It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, and compatible with human dignity and the fundamental rights of others

Feminism- tick
Genderism - no
Religion - sometimes

Point (ii) is problematic: what happens when your belief is substantiated by facts?

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wacademia · 30/09/2018 21:20

They seem to be creating new buildings with only unisex facilities.

Unless said facilities are single occupant, they are breaking employment law. Workers have to be provided with single-sex loos or single-occupant loos.

Get onto HR about it and remind them of their duty to their workers.

wacademia · 01/10/2018 10:16

Diversity and inclusion is important to most companies and organisations, as such, your View point, if it goes against this, when a "reasonable person" would not see you at risk, then I would expect you to be either dismissed or managed out depending on how you handled it and now vocal you were.

Surely a reasonable person would deem women to be at risk in mixed showers, changing rooms, and toilets?

Everyone is under a duty not to create a hostile working environment, and that should include not forcing women, who are inherently vulnerable to sexual attack, to choose between being at risk or resigning.

Bluntness100 · 01/10/2018 15:37

Surely a reasonable person would deem women to be at risk in mixed showers, changing rooms, and toilets?

Sorry, did you pick up she has mixed toilets, shower cubicles and changing rooms at work from another thread, it doesn't seem to be stated on here.

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