Take heart - sensible self id discussion on BBC Politics

[Anlaf]

Very sensible - has Peter Tatchell and Matt Zarb Cousins promoting the meany feminist angle - everyone else on panel articulate and considerate of 'our' side. Starts at 25:30ish below

Keep making the arguments

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bl5gr6/politics-live-28092018

Angry yes exactly, how much damage are we supposed to accept, before PT decides we have legit concerns.

Its already happened. Karen White a rapist and pedophile locked up with women and sexually assaulted them. .

I will say it again women where locked in prison with a rapist and pedophile.

One woman sacrificed on the pyre of trans ideology is one too much.

Tbh, Tatchell has always creeped me out.

Sorry don't want to derail, but donquixotedelamancha is it really that hard for blokes to get it? not being goady, genuinely interested.
Some men I've spoken to, get it straight away and think its appalling and unbelivable.

When I first talked to my husband about it he got it before I'd even finished the sentence.

Yes Angry its so great when that happens. My brother is proving rather difficult, thinks it nuts and laughs, but doesn't see the seriousness of it. Arrrgh. told me he had too much to do when I asked him to fill in GRA consultation.

This week giving a male friend FPFW flyer, he got it straight away.

Tatchell's a man. That's the problem. Heroic when fighting for gay men. Gor women? Meh

Gulags

I peak transed a man today. A tough one - thought it all sounded unbelievable. Showed him Aimee and Sarah and Alex and Phil. Done

@GulagsMyArse Sorry don't want to derail, but donquixotedelamancha is it really that hard for blokes to get it? not being goady, genuinely interested.

I honestly don't know, so my opinion is entirely personal, but I'll have a go:

I think a few years ago I might have bought the self ID schtick because I unequivocally support the rights of transgender people to be treated with respect. For me the things that changed were having two daughters and thus going on MN (with it's majority of female voices) to look at parenting advice.

My DW is not at all GC and disagrees when I allow our DDs to say no to granddad's hugs or make her swap the nurse's outfit she bought them for a doctor's (DD wants to be a doctor, not a nurse). She is very protective of a Trans family member. Yet she got the self ID issue immediately and was vehemently opposed.

I think a man can be more insulated (like PT) all their life, whereas most women (past a certain age) have experienced enough to understand the concerns- even if their politics would lean to supporting self ID. The women on that program all understood why defining the word woman is important.

I think a huge majority are against self ID once they realise the practicalities of what is proposed. The men arguing against it on the video thought that all sport was segregated by sex. PT genuinely thinks that no-one would abuse the system.

So the man today said "Do you really think men would dress as women to get at women and children?"

So I pointed out that priests have done the eqivalent, Jimmy Saville did it, Councillors, Police and Politicians abusing children in children's homes

And "Why don't people suspect them?": Because they're too powerful (JS, Pillars of The Community) or they're unassailable for fear of being accused of being a bigot: Rotherham, men who claim to be women

Wasn't Peter Tatchell involved with PIE?

Sorry but Tatchell is a creep. And he and MZC say it isn't a threat but what they mean is it isn't a threat to them. They are MRAs by any other name.

But the presenter was good and it's another crack in the ice.

donquixotedelamancha thanks, I get that, I think you are right. Insulated is a really good way to put it.

I was for SelfID ( being a lefty, liberal type) when I first heard about it, as it was presented as merely an administrative change. Which I now know is very disingenuous. MN has been amazing to help me understand all this.

CrackpotsArePots yes good points. will have another go at my brother this weekend.

Tatchell is Mr Penis Rights isn't he? Vagina people are utterly irrelevant. Our concerns are irrational fears over imagined bogeymen, when really, no men rape or hurt women - at least not in such a way that is worth making a fuss about or restricting penis right for.

Penis rights are the noble cause and feminists are just the cold spoon of disapproval.

That blind spot of male privilege is ten miles wide.

Yes pesky feminists, we're just such spoil sports

Has this been posted on YouTube? Outside UK so cannot access link.

Tatchell came out strongly for freedom of speech on the trans issue, supporting Julie Bindel, in 2015.
www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2015/feb/14/letters-censorship

The backlash against him was intense, and he obviously realized that he couldn't afford to risk the financial viability of his Foundation. He has since been scrupulous in adhering to the trans party line.

So the man today said "Do you really think men would dress as women to get at women and children?"

In other words, who would do something as humiliating as be seen as a women just for sexual gratification?

Peter Tatchell doesn’t get it. He has posted stuff from GIRES on his website about ‘here’s why the critics of trans law reform are wrong’ www.petertatchellfoundation.org/tag/gires-uk/
Worth a read, basically just says shut up women.

Peter Tatchell has done amazing work for gay rights at great personal cost. But..he is a hero absolutely with feet of clay- he doesn’t want to understand that gay and lesbian rights and trans right are different things and that they are in tension.

Sexuality and gender expression do not predict anything about each other.

Loads of people misunderstand this but it’s unforgivable coming from him. He is well informed enough that he already knows all the arguments against this. So it must be deliberate.

Similarly he doesn’t get (or want to get) that straight men who are homophobes and who are against everything Peter Tatchell stands for, will happily adopt a trans persona- for however short or long a time- to get into female spaces and places so as to have access to women and girls.

So his arguments actually just go to support the scenarios that have allowed for evidence sexual abuse by woman-identifying men prisoners of women prisoners in women’s prisons, which is horrific.

As a man (like most men) Tatchell has not taken the trouble to educate himself about what women are saying about their issues. If he has, he doesn’t care. So a lesbian perspective, even on his gay rights work, is missing. Glaringly apparent on the trans issues.

Perhaps more cynically-Tatchell probably wants to retain his elder statesman platform and ‘national treasure’ status.

He knows that the gay rights movement has been changed fundamentally to include such a widely defined ‘trans’ umbrella that basically anyone and everyone is trans and is ignoring that. He knows this undermines lesbian rights via the cotton ceiling arguments etc.

But he also knows that Stonewall and the trans Borg would cast him into outer darkness if he said anything gender critical. Even if he was minded to which PT isn’t.

So it’s is sad that Peter Tatchell has done some amazing work but has then become a proponent of an ethos that’s the opposite of liberating for lesbians, women and children.

Zutt

Indeed

Jgrobinson I'm sure this must be part of it. I hadn't thought of it that way. The 4000 tweet pile on he received after signing the bindel letter did their job.
Chatty lion. Excellent but depressing post. He must know all the detail of women's fears though. So it's just that they are less important to him.