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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Are we imagining things?

39 replies

Littlemouseroar · 26/09/2018 19:21

Got sniggered out of a meeting with two female unionists at work when I asked what they were doing to make sure no men got into our loos.

(Poss identifying but heck it appears im an activist now)

OP posts:

speakingwoman · 26/09/2018 22:39

Well done for speaking up.

DuggeesWoggle · 26/09/2018 22:40

What was their response? Apart from the sniggering?

Original poster

Littlemouseroar · 26/09/2018 22:56

Its never going to happen. Although of course we must make sure that people who have completely transed get into our toilets.

OP posts:

RatRolyPoly · 26/09/2018 22:59

Do you mean like passport checks?

RatRolyPoly · 26/09/2018 23:03

I think the most you can do really is put little pictures on the doors and trust everyone to go about their business.

UpstartCrow · 26/09/2018 23:04

No it isnt. The least you can do is have mens, womens, disabled access, and unisex toilets, and not snigger.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/09/2018 23:04

Because everyone is totally trustworthy of course. Particularly men, who are not at all known for doing things they shouldn't in unisex toilets.

IStandWithPosie · 26/09/2018 23:06

and not snigger.

This!!^

I mean the idea of a woman being afraid is so hilarious men never hurt women. What a ridiculous idea.

RatRolyPoly · 27/09/2018 20:02

The least you can do is have mens, womens, disabled access, and unisex toilets

But as the OP says, what is anyone doing to do to police people into using the "correct" loo? I mean seriously, she has a point, what steps can anyone take to stop someone using the loo they think is right for them? Short of ID checks for everyone it's simply a case of if you look like you're in the right room no-one looks twice, right?

What steps exactly are you proposing to ensure strict adherence to the rules??

TonnoEMaionese · 27/09/2018 20:03

What steps exactly are you proposing to ensure strict adherence to the rules??

Well, it used to be an honour system, worked fairly well, then a load of people with plenty of entitlement, but very little honour decided that they'd do whatever they liked and who cares what the rest of us thought.

OldCrone · 27/09/2018 20:16

What steps exactly are you proposing to ensure strict adherence to the rules??
Do you think it is legitimate to challenge someone who looks male who is in the women's loo?

RatRolyPoly · 27/09/2018 20:16

Sooo... what are you proposing Tonno?

Original poster

Littlemouseroar · 27/09/2018 20:20

Im not sure about enforcing adherence. In this crazy world its looking more and more like adherence the trope of ‘women STFU. I have a right to be here and you’re committing a hate crime to say otherwise’.

AFAIK, not happened at work yet, but I shouldnt have to be on edge in case it does.

OP posts:

RatRolyPoly · 27/09/2018 20:23

Legitimate? Challenge? What do you mean OldCrone? Do you mean saying to someone "are you sure you're in the right loo love?" to someone who's just minding their own business? Or saying, "your behaviour is inappropriate" to someone who's being nefarious? Both are fine, surely? Isn't that obvious? But insisting to someone simply going about their business that you're quite sure they're a man because they look like one, even though they say they're not, and they're not doing anything to warrant what could very well be your totally incorrect assertion and confrontation, well no. Obviously that's not how we interact in society is it. What do you think? Do you think that counts as a "legitimate challenge"?

TopBitchoftheWitches · 27/09/2018 20:30

I just berated on fb for stating that women had fought for our spaces for years and now men wearing a dress depending on what day it is, demand to access the spaces we fought for.
I will say I did explain on fb that I feel for normal trans people for who the tra's are making this so hard.

The argument back was 'fuck off'.

TopBitchoftheWitches · 27/09/2018 20:30

I just got

OldCrone · 27/09/2018 20:33

Calm down, Rat. That's something of an overreaction to me asking for clarification of your standpoint. I quoted the wrong bit of your post - my reply was really to the bit where you said:

Short of ID checks for everyone it's simply a case of if you look like you're in the right room no-one looks twice, right?

So I was asking for clarification of what you thought was appropriate in the case of someone who didn't look as though they were in the right place.

But insisting to someone simply going about their business that you're quite sure they're a man because they look like one, even though they say they're not, and they're not doing anything to warrant what could very well be your totally incorrect assertion and confrontation, well no.

I take it from this comment that you believe that any man can enter the women's toilets and should not be challenged, because if he insists he is a woman, we are compelled to believe him, even if he is clearly male. Do you not see a problem with this?

heresyandwitchcraft · 27/09/2018 20:39

I have accidentally almost wandered into the men's on at least 2 occasions because whenever a place tries to be "creative" and deviate from the standard symbols I can get a little confused. I was stopped both times before I walked in by a male security guard. Both times I was in "gender neutral" clothing. If someone who looks like a man walks into your toilet you tell them this is the ladies' room and politely ask them to leave. Likewise for the men's.
This is how it has always worked, both social conventions and more formal security guards will intervene to keep spaces same-sex segregated.
These safeguards are what we will lose, as well as legal backing for protecting such spaces.
I think if I now kicked up a fuss and said I was a man, I would have to be allowed in the gents.
Now Jess Bradley, our non-binary trans woman alleged exhibitionist flasher, will have every right to use our changing room and expose their penis in front of women getting ready to swim if they want to. Likewise Christyl Knight, convicted paedophile, can come in legally and mingle with the girls. And Ian Huntley, if he formally transitions and is ever let out of prison. These are just the high-profile cases that have been in the news. I really do not like the idea of being in a changing room with any of these individuals, actually, because they are all male.
All of these people could be categorically told to use alternative spaces if we actually implemented same biological-sex policies for female-only spaces, with reasonable third-space provision, therefore keeping women and girls safer. There are very few people out there whose sex cannot be easily perceived, especially after speaking to them. Trans men pass more easily, and they are the ones actually taking the risk onto themselves by using the male facilities, not potentially imposing a risk on others if we go by statistical analysis of average criminal propensity of each sex so I don't think it's the same issue. They are of the lower risk category demanding access to a higher risk one, whereas the complete reverse is true for trans women. However, males should actually also be consulted as to whether they care! But because open access for males puts females at more risk, this debate is so trans women focused.
But people don't seem to care about the rights of women to maintain their boundaries.

UpstartCrow · 27/09/2018 23:30

If you can't say 'are you in the right loo' to a man because they are not actively doing anything 'wrong' and might ID as a woman; then you don't live in an equal or egalitarian society.
You live in a male dominated society where men cannot be challenged by women.

deepwatersolo · 27/09/2018 23:39

If you can't say 'are you in the right loo' to a man because they are not actively doing anything 'wrong' and might ID as a woman; then you don't live in an equal or egalitarian society.

This.

Also: if you have rules but do not have any mechanism to enforce them, there are really no rules. They are reduced to some polite recommendation, that's all.

RatRolyPoly · 28/09/2018 11:02

If you can't say 'are you in the right loo' to a man because they are not actively doing anything 'wrong' and might ID as a woman; then you don't live in an equal or egalitarian society

I'm pretty sure I expressly said you can say "are you in the right loo?" to anyone - in fact I went as far as to say it was obvious that you "can"

RatRolyPoly · 28/09/2018 11:04

Also: if you have rules but do not have any mechanism to enforce them, there are really no rules.

Well precisely.

It appears to me that in the case of toilets, short of some sort of passport border control on entry or vigilante toilet police, no matter what rules anyone would like there to be there is no viable mechanism to enforce them.

So it's a polite recommendation then, isn't it. Always has been, always will be. Toilets; that's kind of the bottom line.

UpstartCrow · 28/09/2018 11:37

Eamon Holmes just scored an own goal for the trans lobby on This Morning by supporting a male gender fluid police officer being allowed to do an intimate body search on a woman.

We have rules to say this is not permitted. The mechanism to enforce it has been removed.

IStandWithPosie · 28/09/2018 12:48

Urgh. They have to be two of the dimmest tv presenters around.

IStandWithPosie · 28/09/2018 12:49

They simply are unable to think beyond “but I know a trans woman and she’s lovely, how can you say mean things?”

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