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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billboard with dictionary definition 'woman: adult human female' removed after pressure from TRAs.

423 replies

R0wantrees · 24/09/2018 18:19

Is the OED now hate speech?

Interesting to note some of the sources of the complaints: twitter.com/Direct_PS/status/1044263398333132800

Billboard with dictionary definition 'woman: adult human female' removed after pressure from TRAs.
Billboard with dictionary definition 'woman: adult human female' removed after pressure from TRAs.
Billboard with dictionary definition 'woman: adult human female' removed after pressure from TRAs.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 24/09/2018 19:18

Times article today by hugo rifkind : 'Even thinking about trans people is wrong: If a university philosophy department can ban discussion of what makes a woman, we’re all potential offenders' (extract) " The censorious junior philosophers of Durham, though, do not sound afraid. Rather, they sound positively proud, and perhaps even self-righteous, that this is a topic of discussion they are not prepared to tolerate. They appear to have, in other words, an absolute moral conviction that this is something not to be thought about.

This is a shame because, if one tried, one could have a decent stab at a philosophical justification for eschewing philosophy about trans issues. One could, for example, draw inspiration from John Stuart Mill’s harm principle which, in trite abbreviation, held that people should not be allowed to harm other people. Mill himself was firm about the distinction between actual harm and mere offence, but I suppose one could extend the former by contending that even discussion in this area could lead to actual, physical harm being caused to vulnerable people, either by their own hands or at the hands of others.

Even if such an argument could be intellectually advanced, however, could it be acceptably debated afterwards? Or would that also be “belittling trans experiences”? Indeed, am I doing that now? Fundamentally, if it is not morally OK to discuss this stuff, is it morally OK to even discuss discussing it? Look, don’t roll your eyes at me, this is what philosophers do. Or, as Stock says, it used to be.

Sofocleous’s offence, with the penis thing, was to deny that “trans women are women”, a maxim regarded by many as close to gospel. " (continues)

thread with link to article: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375156-Hugo-Rifkind-in-the-Times-Even-thinking-about-trans-people-is-wrong

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 24/09/2018 19:31

This is such an own goal for the TRAs it proves they are so deranged they cannot tolerate reality. Hope the money is refunded though.

I imagine they'll have to. I'd be happy to contribute to crowdfunding for her to take them to court if not. Would be good to have it spelled out why "woman - adult human female" is a morally objectionable statement.

FermatsTheorem · 24/09/2018 19:40

Yes - surely the legal precedent has been set with the gay couple who took the Christian bakers to court (I personally thought it was the wrong decision, but hey, the precedent is now there). You cannot turn down business on the grounds that you disagree with someone's politics. If you (as a billboard firm) are prepared to carry "Vote Tory", "Vote Labour", "Leave the EU", "Stay in the EU", "Jesus saves", etc (would be good to get a full list of what billboards they have had), then you can't turn down "Women = adult human female".

AspieAndProud · 24/09/2018 19:40

The philosophy thing reminds me of Vroomfondel and collegue Majikthise, the bolshy representatives of the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries and Other Thinking Persons, in The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy who demand that the computer Deep Thought not be allowed to ponder the Ultimate Question to Life, the Universe and Everything: ''We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!''

AspieAndProud · 24/09/2018 19:41

(Spoilers: the answer is 42)

AssassinatedBeauty · 24/09/2018 19:44

"You cannot turn down business on the grounds that you disagree with someone's politics. If you (as a billboard firm) are prepared to carry "Vote Tory", "Vote Labour", "Leave the EU", "Stay in the EU", "Jesus saves", etc (would be good to get a full list of what billboards they have had), then you can't turn down "Women = adult human female"."

So true, FermatsTheorem. I'd also donate to crowdfunding in order to take this to court. This kind of tantrumming and throwing privilege around is sickening.

ThefusilliJerry · 24/09/2018 19:44

Just noted on another thread how his growing on Twitter might well expose harrop to defamation claims ... remarkable that a medical professional would be so reckless.

Procrastinator1 · 24/09/2018 19:44

I would be very happy to contribute to legal costs for suing primesite for any breach of contact, and for libel if appropriate, against those who placed the ad and primesite if the libel is being repeated. At least Harrop uses his own name. This is a full on assault on freedom of speech. No doubt primesite are aware that mumsnet is full of women who make purchase decisions, we ought to remind them of this. The primesite website gives their executives Twitter.

ThefusilliJerry · 24/09/2018 19:45

Growing? Crowing! Damned out of his own mouth. Quite staggering really.

Iused2BanOptimist · 24/09/2018 19:46

I will also contribute to a crowdfunding. Time to thrash this out in court and what a lot of lovely publicity it will bring. Wink

MrsFogi · 24/09/2018 19:49

I suspect they are willing to publish pictures of semi-naked women regardless of the impact that has on women or the offence it may cause.

hellandhairnets · 24/09/2018 19:49

Yes, I'd happily contribute to a crowdfunder too. I see someone's just posted a screenshot of Harrop's twitter feed with the poster and his comments at the bottom of the Hugo Rifkind Times article. Hopefully it'll give a bit more publicity to what's been going on.

AspieAndProud · 24/09/2018 19:51

For those who put the sign up this couldn't have worked out better: publicity when the sign went up; publicity when it came down; and almost certainly money back they can use on future campaigns. Win, win, win.

seafret · 24/09/2018 19:55

Yes I will donate too.

birdbandit · 24/09/2018 20:00

So the message from Harrop etc is, that women aren't entitled to privacy, choice, a name of their own, and to speak about issues which impact their rights directly.

And when I say rights, I'm not talking about just going to the loo without having to navigate around someone's crossdressing fetish, but boring things like being able to bring a sex discrimination case to court. No sex based rights has a huge impact on our lives.

And no one is saying that all Transgender Women are hanging around the loo hoping to do something devious. What we are saying is:

WHEN ONLY A TINY PERCENTAGE OF REPORTED SEXUAL ASSULT CASES GO TO COURT, LET ALONE RESULT IN A CONVICTION, DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER LOOPHOLE FOR THE GRIM TO EXPLOIT?

dolorsit · 24/09/2018 20:00

I would also contribute to crowdfunder.

I also think Harrop is on shaky ground.

ChilliJamandAvocado · 24/09/2018 20:01

I'm guessing they'll be coming after the lexicographers next. Another one here willing to chuck a good wedge towards a crowd funder.

Molokonono · 24/09/2018 20:02

Posie I know you are banned from here but I'll happily donate again. Every time I donate the amount goes up!

howlsmovingcastle84 · 24/09/2018 20:02

Lawyer of the house says that this falls under discrimination based on political beliefs when providing services (especially as this was put up to specifically coincide with the Labour conference in an attempt to publicise and influence policy). He says that a solicitor should write to the company and give them until 10.30 in the morning to confirm they will keep the poster up or we'll seek a court order prohibiting the removal of the poster. The cost of this would probably be £2000. (costs could be recovered). DH does get rather excited by these things but it's an option :-)

LemonJello · 24/09/2018 20:03

I hope someone manages to get some photos of them ripping it down. That would be great for press.

Annandale · 24/09/2018 20:09

That primesite response is a huge giggle. 'At first sight this content did not raise a red flag...' 1. Yes that would be because it's completely uncontroversial fact and 2. Way to troll the Labour party with your 'red flag' reference. 'The people's flag is deepest red, but menstrual blood's not woman-sent' . 'The people's flag is deepest pink, which makes it a woman, don't you think?'

BoreOfWhabylon · 24/09/2018 20:09

Would your DH be up for doing that Howls? I'll contribute to his fee.

Noqont · 24/09/2018 20:14

This is a good point Howls. And just because the nutty doctor says this is hate speech doesn't mean that it is. Would your dp help with it?

Anlaf · 24/09/2018 20:20

YY to arguing on the basis of political beliefs. I'd chip in a quid or two to a legal fees crowdfunder. What an own goal by the thought police though!

howlsmovingcastle84 · 24/09/2018 20:20

He can't write in an official capacity as a solicitor as he is no longer self-employed so doesn't have the right insurance! He could draft a letter that someone from FPFW could send outlining the above and saying that 'if action is not taken then a solicitor will be instructed' etc. There's also the issue with the libel on the tweet that can be pursued.