Cowardice

[SusanBunch]

Just saw this from Julie Bindel. I am a great admirer of her BUT I wonder if this is not a bit unfair. Julie has a huge media profile. She is self-employed and I would guess she is not hard-up. I just can’t understand why, after seeing the abuse women get for speaking out, she chooses to blame/attack those who are scared of doing so.

If I said what I truly thought, I could lose my job. Who would help me then? The answer is, nobody would. Many of the prominent pro-trans voices in my sector have active power to make life and career opportunities difficult for me. Should I be expected to make that sacrifice?

I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer here. I can see Julie’s point. I am also struggling with feeling guilt at not doing enough to help this cause.

How do others feel?

She has a point but it is also unfair. If everyone had spoken out en mass a few years back it would have helped enormously.

That makes the assumption though that most people understood what was happening until recently and let's face it many people still don't.

It's harsh to not examine the reasons that ordinary women (as opposed to career feminists) don't speak out. You only have to look at other totalitarian regimes in history to see how this happens.

I can't imagine a woman in Credit Suisse who wasn't in full-throated support of Bunce would be able to keep her job without an HR reprimand.

In fact, given that so many people are hoping for promotion, and so many politicians are looking at retirement plans that involve non-executive directorships of large institutions with equalities policies that are similar to Credit Suisse's - I can't see them supporting women instead.

But what has happened with Western societies, that citizens are so cowed? This is not just the trans issue and not just the UK. This phaenomenon spread far and wide that stuff that was open to robust discussion 20 years back is unspeakable now. What the f* happened?

I disagree with her but I admire her hugely because she is brave. This is no time for arguing amongst ourselves. Our time is now. We can all do something. Being on here, if you do nothing else is something, because you give courage to others. Filling out the GRA Consultation, sticking up some stickers, talking to other people about it in person, going to meetings

We can all do something

She's allowed to be angry, she's allowed to get people's back up, IMO. She's allowed to be wrong

I think it's infuriating because if everyone spoke out these MRA's would lose a lot of their power. We could get it shut down much more quickly.

But people face real repercussions for speaking out and it is completely fair enough that many are too scared to do so.

I am too scared to do so. I've just had to do what I can which means posting a lot on here, donating to campaigns and speaking quietly to friends who I think would get it, to spread the word where I can.

It's harsh but she's right.
Given the doxxing, the threats, intimidation, bullying, direct threats to people's jobs I am not surprised that so many women are frightened and keep silent. It's logical and understandable.
But women are starting to speak out in greater numbers and it is incredibly liberating now we are actively breaking the silence. As #nodebate is increasingly ridiculed and the violence, bomb threats and masked men have just added to the public's disdain for those using these tactics, it IS becoming more safe. However, our first priority is to ensure our own and our family's safety. The TRAs care nothing for women's safety so we must prioritise it - even when others find it frustrating.

I really understand the frustration she is expressing there, because it is really bloody hard to be a visible target for so long, and having people tell you they support you privately, but they can't say anything themselves is such an added extra pressure.

Imagine it, there you are, lone voice against a sea of verbal abuse and threats, and you know lots of people agree with you, but they just won't speak up with you. I think it must make the hard stuff even worse.

I genuinely understand that there are reasons to be circumspect. We can all do something and no one should belittle anyone's efforts. But I do caution people about the wisdom of telling someone you support them but you can't do so openly. It's massively discouraging.

I think people are frightened. I look at the jobs available to school leavers now and compare them to those around when I left school. Now there are jobs, but they all seem astonishingly precarious, often with no sick pay or holiday pay. Few of them seem to have any permanence. When I left school, lots of people went straight into permanent safe positions.

When you are fighting every day to keep your head above water, there’s no time for objections. When you know there are no laws to protect you and no union to back you up, then you’re much more likely to keep your mouth shut and your head down.

I hope that women like Prof Stock inspire similar women to speak out. She took a lot of flak but she was supported and still promoted. Clearly she took a big risk though.

I don't stand to lose much as a SAHM (bar the potential stalking) but it also means my influence is limited. Unless of course it becomes normal to unperson all dissenters relatives too. Nothing would surprise me anymore.

When you are fighting every day to keep your head above water, there’s no time for objections

Yes. I don't think it's a coincidence that this attack on women coincides with attacks on minority groups and above all the onslaught on the working classes. Privilege is reasserting itself in all directions.

Everyone can do something.
Once you understand, you have a moral obligation to do something.
Sign petitions.
See your MP.
Debate on this site.
Talk to friends.
Raise reasonable objections in the workplace.
Learn the relevant laws and use it.
Influence workplace policy.
Organise with others secretly.

Do not be part of the problem.

There's more than speaking publicly. But doing nothing, nothing at all, is cowardice.
We all have something to lose. We can't let others take the fall because we think our losses are worse.

All it takes for bad stuff to happen is for good people to do nothing.

Yes, I see where she is coming from, I really do. I just think it is wrong to blame the women. We have also seen that coming out as a GC man has far fewer repercussions than doing so as a woman.
On the scale of significance in my field, I am pretty insignificant. I don't kid myself that many people would listen to me if I did speak out. However, I also know that if I did, I would be likely to get complaints to my employer and accusations that I was making people feel unsafe. People would be unlikely to want to collaborate with me in the future and I think getting jobs would be harder. I guess I sort of think that my life is stressful enough and I can't handle yet another layer of stress on top of it. But then I also feel bad because I see others being vilified on social media and I don't actively defend them.

Ultimately though, it is the fault of the people creating this horrible environment. Not the women who are too scared to speak.

Baracker I definitely do some of these things. I have written in support to the institutions of some of the women being vilified. I have done so in my own name; I have just not made my letters public on social media. I have persuaded my entire family to support this cause, even after a couple of them were initially very pro-TRA. I will arrange to see my MP.

I think she's brave for speaking out - and she's been speaking out for a long time.

But I also think it's really hard for women who are in jobs, and who risk losing those jobs if they speak out. It's particularly tough if you have a family to support. She probably ought to have some understanding of what it's like for those women.

I have historically been a bit of a coward but I am gradually coming out as GC on social media.

I’ve been thinking about this. blardy has summed up a lot of what I feel on this.

It’s been bothering me for a while. People speak up about all kinds of things - political, corruption etc. Why not this?

Fear - basically. But not fear alone - with changes in societal structure. Sorry this will be long and rambling.

I’ve said for a long time that we are producing a generation of students who cannot effectively stand up to opposition or tyranny. No debate/no platform attitudes have lead to or perhaps just come along with, an inability to really argue. This we see daily - cogent and informed viewpoints on here are met with thought terminating cliches and accusations of transphobia.

No one can argue anymore
Twitter restricts you to sound bites
Alternative facts have lead to identity politics and people thinking their opinions are as valid as objective truths.

All this leads to infantilism- a hiding from reality. I’ve often pondered why this has been allowed. I can only conclude that it benefits those holding the reins of power to have a poorly educated, ill equipped to argue generation. Who cannot manage without physical comfort.

But maybe that’s not enough. I’m part of the ruling elite. I want to make more money and I don’t want to share it. Nor do I want any pesky social uprising. What more can I do?

Well I can dial back workers rights. I can neuter the unions. I can make tribunals expensive. Perhaps I’ll dial back the reasons those pesky workers can contest being fired. Oooh, zero hour contracts! Yes everyone on them. Brexit will be great to remove even more rights.,

More dependency is created by debt. Uni fees mean people have debt from the start. Consumer culture works twofold - cheap consumer goods create an illusion of wealth while also meaning people need their jobs to pay for it.

So all this has created a move back towards an almost feudal system. The same lot who owned the land after 1066 still own it. The rest of us are peasants to serve them.

The upshot is a workforce where most people are two pay packets from serious poverty. Where education is mocked and where debate is stifled.

Where it gets socially toxic is where you Add in the whole queer theory stuff. Mix it with an MRA backlash (women are getting a bit big for their boots) and an alt right backlash (ditto anyone not white.) and you create a fractured, fearful society where there are seven billion identities and, as Julie has found - nobody is standing up for anyone but their own little tribe.,

I agree with Julie. At the same time I understand why people don’t want to risk their jobs.

Something very dark is happening to society.

Oh and in that fractured society you can push any agenda you want, and asset strip to your hearts content.

Because no one is uniting to stop you.

I imagine Julie Bindel is talking mainly about people in the public eye who have a voice and influence and won’t use it - the Cabinet Ministers who whisper in corners with James Kirkup, maybe the JK Rowlings.
I think she’s entitled to have a pop at them. As I recall, she was a regular Guardian writer until she started speaking out. She was pretty much on her own for a long time and I imagine she’s paid a price both professionally and personally.

I may not always agree with her but I think she has enormous courage and integrity.

She's right.

But I do caution people about the wisdom of telling someone you support them but you can't do so openly.

Yes. Do some of the things Barracker suggests. But don't whine at Julie in her PMs.

I'm not afraid to talk about Brexit.

I'm not afraid to talk about sexism in the work place.

I'm not afraid to call out racism.

I'm not afraid to call out homophobic attitudes.

I'm not afraid to call out discrimination.

I'm not afraid to call out safeguarding - hold on! Actually, yes I am because there is a conflict here. I will be called a bigot (a word I find offensive due to my background). Safeguarding is being eroded and all the above will topple if it is stripped away.

Some people are cowards it is true, who could do more but have no real excuse. But they would always be like that, always the very last to speak up.

Some of us live right on the edge of society and survival already though and that is scary and dehumanising, especially if you have lsot your heath.

Yes very dark times bowl

I think the housing crisis is a huge factor. Losing your home and not being able to find another whilst also being unable to work (more than once) is among the worst things that have happened to me/us in quite a long lsit of really very shitty things. Things are not what they were 18 years ago, especially in the south of england.

This feudal land grabbing system as you say bowl Post-enclosure peasants robbed of common land.

I am working with a few other people to do what I can, and do stickers etc. I have been incapacitated by health issues sicne before this all really got going, so had no idea or even who Julie was! But then I have fought other fights too in the meantime that have not jsut served myself as I know what it is like to need help. It isn't enough though and I am late to this casue so I am sorry for that and being such a dim newbie. But I feel that burning obligation that barracker says to do something, anything. I could never live with myself otherwise.

I imagine Julie has also felt very alone and ostracised at times and been incredibly brave and resilient. I sincerely thank her. (and I hope she lets some of us off the hook little bit.)

placemats your list is extraordinary.

I'm not afraid to call out safeguarding - hold on! Actually, yes I am because there is a conflict here. I will be called a bigot (a word I find offensive due to my background). Safeguarding is being eroded and all the above will topple if it is stripped away.

Then that is where we msut look. Sinister goings on.

From a bitter comment directed at Caroline Lucas MP, I got the impression that Bindel was also calling out hypocrisy.

Lucas talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

Actually, that's wrong. In reply to a question about Green party policy on legalising the prostitution of people, Lucas replied: "That's what my party believes but I happen to disagree with the policy".

The support of an MP like Lucas to Julie Bindel, would have made all the difference. Lucas walked the walk with prostitution, but for some reason would not take on the rich powerful and influential LBGTQ.

I am less afrai that a was. I would be able to speak up at work. In fact I feel so strongly that if I thought children were not being safeguarded I would be prepared to lose my job. And if some GIRES or Mermaids person came in to talk to us I would be very assertive in my questioning. And I've been in this long enough to have facts at my fingertips