Trans passport question

[MipMipMip]

This isn't a thread for what safeguards there should be or if a person should be able to get a passport in the opposite sex. This is just a question that I had no idea where to put and I'm hoping someone (or more probably several someones as it's about a repeatable scenario) can answer. Here because there are a lot of very knowledgeable about trans people present.

Assuming someone has got a passport stating their sex as something other than they were born with, what happens when they go abroad? I imagine in the UK they get waved through but what about other countries? Particularly ones with heightened security or who disagree with the concept of trans. Does not passing make people question it?

And by the same token what happens if your passport is aligned with your sex but you present as the other? Again, does it get questioned?

Are there places you just can't go? Do you end up being strip searched (not nice for anyone!)? How about people with a mix of boobs and a dick?

I'm genuinely trying to understand the practicalities here and would be grateful if people could tell me more, both policy and experienced.

Many thanks.

I just got back from Belgium. My passport says Male, but I present as female.
I left my door key in my jeans pocket which made the scanner bleep so I got pulled aside - “please step this way madam” - and searched, by a woman.

Passport control let me through without any problems.

WOuld you feel equally comfortable travelling to any country? ( if you don't mind my nosiness)

Nope. There are probably some countries where they’d jail me or even kill me shortly after arriving.

I was a bit worried about turning up with a male passport though. Only a bit. I can usually talk my way out of most situations.

DonnaBe don’t you feel bad that a woman undertook your search?

id be curious to see the list of countries for which homosexuals //trans //trans+ homo have problems...is that Published? ( feeling drained today , or id spend more effort on google)

GollyGoshGreat

Personally, I’d rather not be searched, but I don’t have a preference about men or women doing it.
My searcher was great. She and I chatted away in French while she frisked me.
I hope she didn’t mind. But I suppose they get used to searching people all day long. I don’t look very so I’m not sure if she knew or not.

It took 30 seconds. We found my key, I apologised and she waved me through.

Meant to say, I don’t look very trans.....my iPad missed the word out. Grrrrr

Midge there are lots of websites that list countries that are LGBT friendly or not. The FCO website has country specific advice that can include details on attitudes towards LGBT travellers (including places where one would be unlikely to encounter hostility in big cities, but may do so in more rural areas)

Thank you. Do you think it would be different if you didn't pass?

Psssing isn’t black and white. I pass in most situations but not all.

Sorry I phrased that badly.

DonnaBe thanks for responding. It’s usually same sex searches that are undertaken.

When I passed through the airport last month I was searched by a female security officer wearing a hijab. Would you have told them you are male sexed or are you rights to present yourself as you wish more important than hers not to touch a male she isn’t related to?

Surely they'd just think it was a mistake

GollyGoshGreat

Ooohhhh thought you were all too friendly! I’m not avoiding answering, we just watched Strictly Come Dancing and are all a little bit drunk in our house!

Your question needs a long answer! I’d be unsociable answering now, so I’ll look forward to responding in the morning.

Have a good evening.

X

DonnaBe thank you. There’s no edge to my question. Genuinely interested to know how you feel about it.

Was thinking about better way to phrase my question up thread.

Do you think someone who very obviously didn't pass would have more difficulties or do you think it has become so commonplace that no one would bat an eyelid?

GollyGoshGreat

As expected, I was a bit worse for wear after Strictly. A bit disappointed as I'd only heard of one of the contestants. Anyway, here's my answer:

Things happened fast. I was told “Step over here madam”, and within seconds, a woman was frisking me and using a hand held scanner on me. I was not in control of the situation, the security people were.

Security processes thousands of people per day. I reckon they see trans people regularly, possibly daily, and they will have a policy on how to deal with us. In the UK, the law says I should be treated as a woman, and they will no doubt comply with that law.

I certainly wouldn’t want to cause distress to someone who’s religion meant they didn’t want to touch me. The safest thing here would be for an officer not of that religion to search me. I would presume a religious security officer would be fully trained in what to do and know how to deal with this sort of situation. I certainly wouldn’t be upset if a security officer felt they couldn’t touch me because I was trans. I would be very upset, and I would complain, if an officer refused to search me because they said I was a man.
It is the security people who are in control here, and the onus would be on a female security officer to recuse herself.

Not allowing women to touch men is a form of oppression. It’s patriarchy exerting its control. It prevents women being doctors, nurses, paramedics or even police officers or fire fighters. Women in this position need our support as their religion may be forcing them to live life in what Simone de Beauvoir called “Bad Faith”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism). But it's important that we do not start by attacking the religion. The slogan should be "Support the Women".

From a policy making point of view, where two groups of people’s rights, opinions or expectations of life clash with each other, the best approach I’ve found is Intersectionality. It teaches us how to recognise conflicts, and work towards resolving them. There’s lots of stuff on the web about Intersectionality, and I’d definitely recommend this book: www.amazon.co.uk/Intersectionality-Concepts-Patricia-Hill-Collins/dp/0745684491?tag=mumsnetforum-21

It's definitely an issue in some countries. Gigi Gorgeous (Youtube person) wasn't able to get into Dubai and made an almighty fuss about it (but still wasn't let in, wealthy heiress girlfriend had to fly out to the rescue).

DonnaBe I hope your hangover has broken now.

I know about intersectionality thanks. I’m interested in how you feel the power plays out there as the male-sexed person that took away the decision of the woman to touch a male-sexed body.

Do you think the patriarchy is the reason why you decide to co-opt ‘woman’ and not proudly be non-conforming gay man?

OP - I have a ‘butch’ female colleague who one first take looks male but when you interact with her it’s plain that she’s a woman. We’ve travelled together and she’s had a few double takes. Probably harder if you’re a GNC male.

GollyGoshGreat

Do you think the patriarchy is the reason why you decide to co-opt ‘woman’ and not proudly be non-conforming gay man?

No. I'm not co-opting anything, and I'm certainly not a gay man.

Sexuality and gender identity are entirely different things.
Gender Identity is someone's own sense of what sex they are. For the vast majority of people it coincides with their biological sex. For trans people it doesn't and we get all sorts of mental health problems.

Non trans people don't notice they have a gender identity. If you're trans you don't notice anything else.

It's much easier to conceptualise homosexuality - people are attracted to other people for sex and companionship - gay people are simply attracted to people the same sex as them. It's easy for the "normal" majority to see the parallels.

It's much harder for non-trans people to understand trans people. There are no obvious metaphors. We often find it hard to articulate our own condition because the concepts to do so aren't present in the zeitgeist. The concept you need - gender identity - is not apparent to non-trans people.
Many feminists deny gender identity exists and argue we're just conforming to patriarchal stereotypes. I think that's why the arguments between us are often so bitter. I'm in favour of challenging stereotypes, dismantling patriarchy and helping all people to live true lives.

There's a Wikipedia article on gender Identity which is a good introduction: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

And a Royal College of Psychiatrists statement here: www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf

DonnaBe thanks for engaging. I don’t want to derail this thread any further so I’ll bow out and say I wish you well.

I think it's really interesting you think non-trans people have no sense of gender identity. The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism. I suspect very few women truly don't notice it.

The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism. I suspect very few women truly don't notice it.

Apologies for adding to the derail but ^^THIS.

Now100 jellyfrizz

The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism.

I totally agree with that, but "expected gender roles" are society created myths and constructs and we have to keep challenging them. They are part of patriarchy and deconstructing and freeing ourselves from them is one of the things we need to do to liberate ourselves.

Gender Identity is nothing to do with society, it is either innate or acquired before a child is around 3 years old. It's the person's own internal sense of what sex they are.

I was born male, but my gender identity is female. I can't help that. Scientists tell me it happened sometime before I was 3 years old.
That doesn't stop me questioning and challenging what you call "expected gender roles".

When trans people transition, it doesn't been they're buying into society's myths and stereotypes. They're just aligning their bodies with their gender identities.

There are two very different ideas here. Gender is not the same thing as gender identity.