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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Self ID - has any group said by what standards/criteria it would be enforced?

18 replies

seafret · 22/09/2018 15:28

Maybe I haven't googled enough, but I can't find details of how if self ID comes in here, I would go about complaining if I had suspicions that a male was self IDing to gain access to toilets or changing rooms etc but not actually 'living as a woman'.

I know the whole thing is complete insidious bollocks, but is there even any sort of attempt made to explain how we would investigate an individual and say yes they are or no they are not by these criteria. It would be easy but meaningless to adopt a name like Chris or Alex or Leslie for eg.

Or are they not even bothering to pretend it could be enforced?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 15:32

They pretend it's enforced because it's an "offence punishable by up to two years in prison" to lie on a statutory declaration. But unless the declaration specifically asks if you are using it to gain access to women's spaces just because you're a perv, which I doubt it will, you're not lying about anything are you? They want recognition for non binary so that covers the Bunces of this world.

Melamin · 22/09/2018 15:36

Jess is a non-binary woman or something.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 22/09/2018 15:54

I would go about complaining if I had suspicions that a male was self IDing to gain access to toilets or changing rooms etc but not actually 'living as a woman'.

It's not about safeguarding - many trans policies include the removal of safeguarding.

So it's not about stopping men from entering women and girls spaces, it's those women and girls being able to call the police during or after a crime has been committed.

We have the safety of knowing that the full weight of the law will come down on anyone who attacks us in a female space. Not the ability to protect against or reduce the chances of it happening in the first place.

VickyEadie · 22/09/2018 15:58

We have the safety of knowing that the full weight of the law will come down on anyone who attacks us in a female space.

And we should be much comforted that if a woman is assaulted by a man in a female space, if he's given a prison sentence but declares himself to be a woman, he'll be shoved in with a load of vulnerable women who cannot escape.

HandsOffMyRights · 22/09/2018 16:02

Is this how to live as a woman for two years?

Self ID - has any group said by what standards/criteria it would be enforced?
HandsOffMyRights · 22/09/2018 16:07

Although I think maybe Bunce's Ann Summers look would be expected

inquiquotiokixul · 22/09/2018 16:13

It's not self-ID by itself. Self-ID to get a GRC combined with the fact that asking for someone to show a GRC is considered transphobic, "outing" and a hate crime means that all spaces become de-facto unisex spaces. Except that decent men who respect women's dignity and privacy won't come into women's spaces so these will be open to 3 categories of people (a) women of the old-fashioned having-a-vagina kind (b) trans women and non-binary or other gender-spectrum folk who feel more comfortable in women's spaces (c) pervs and predators who know that the destruction of the boundaries that used to be there to protect group (a) means that they cannot be challenged or guarded against for fear of being accused of transphobia.

People in group (b) are not the same as the people in group (c) obviously.

But honestly group (a) will generally be safer in entirely unisex spaces with plenty of decent respectful men around than in allegedly (but not really) female spaces into which group (c) can get access unchallenged.

HandsOffMyRights · 22/09/2018 16:21

Nobody has ever told us how it benefits women and girls to have males in our spaces.

nopeni · 22/09/2018 16:29

You couldn't complain without looking like a bigot.

You already can't and it's not even law yet.

Most women will just stay quiet and unconsciously modify their behaviour, no matter how uncomfortable they are.

This whole debacle wants to put women back in their place - either at home out of sight, or in public as willing sex objects.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 16:32

There are no laws around eg who can use which toilets it's all social convention.

The trans rights activists are removing the social conventions by say sex is not a thing, gender is all, assume anyone you see in a single sex space should be there, and if things go wrong then existing laws can be invoked (ie after the event and we all know how that sex crimes are not really tackled at all for a variety of reasons from not reporting through to police disinterest etc).

Before there was no law saying men couldn't use the toilets changing rooms with a skirty woman on but everyone knew that this indicated biological sex. If someone who seemed a bit chaplike but dressed "as a woman" was in there then generally everyone pretended not to notice but of course if they were a bit weird ie not illegal but creepy then women had the right to go and tell someone / say something etc. This has been eroded - we are NOT "allowed" to challenge anyone or report anyone UNLESS they do something illegal by which point it is too late + loads of creepy men operate just the right side of the law. It is not illegal to stare at people, strike up conversations while standing to near, say weirdy things to them, start talking to schoolgirls and asking them personal questions and all the stuff that we get that is not illegal BUT when the social boundaries are removed, areas where women gather to do personal stuff / take clothes off will be stuffed with men doing this. And there will be NOTHING that we can do about it.

Self ID removes gatekeeping to legal transition which is separate - and transexuals are NOT keen on it at all as it opens up what was a small protected category of dysphoric people into just anybody who feels like filling a form in and BINGO you're a woman.

There will be men who do this for a laugh like that man who got breast implants for a year for a bet. MRAs might do it and then rock up to women's stuff and disrupt it. There's a host of fun stuff.

The govt and some trans activist orgs say that as the equality act is not changing it makes no difference.
It does though because:
Actually loads of orgs and especially ones that are to do with children have been "advised" on changing all their policies and safeguarding on the basis that the EA would be changed or even HAS been changed. It is interesting and worrying that the orgs that have received "advice" from pressure groups seem to be alomst exclusively women only and / or >> extra worry >> things for children. Why the focus on safeguarding and women and children? Where are the challeneges to Eton, the male succession for peers (cannot be claimed by a transman), priests in teh RC church and etc and so on. I have heard of NO challenges to these orgs or others. This should ring MASSIVE ALARM BELLS.

Self ID is already in practice happening and approved > with NO assessment of the impact on girls & women at all. Scottish FOI about the impact assessment on putting transwomen in women's prisons had ticked "age" and "gender ID" on the equalities forms but NOT (unbelievably) the SEX box ie they totally overlooked / disregarded considering the imapct on female prisoners of having transwomen in with them and note this is on a self ID basis as well I believe.

Crime is already being recorded on a self ID basis.

We know about schools / guides / swim england.

At this point the horse has bolted and I am not sure what happens next ALTHOUGH the revelation that loads of leading trans activists who have informed the govt and schools etc are pervy weirdos has had an impact as has the women all gettign assaulted by the penis person convicted of rape who was shut in with them. This stuff is so OBVIOUSLY against all common sense and the tone in the papers is definitely changing.

What is worrying is that all the political parties are all "TWAW #nodebate" and of course they are in charge so that is a major issue.

Misogynists are loving all this. And men who enjoy committing sex offences are watching with extreme interest.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 22/09/2018 16:38

What is worrying is that all the political parties are all "TWAW #nodebate" and of course they are in charge so that is a major issue.

Misogynists are loving all this. And men who enjoy committing sex offences are watching with extreme interest.

I think men who enjoy committing sex offences are doing more than watching, I believe they are helping to push it through.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 16:42

Well yes the recent revelations expose that fact (no pun intended!).

The few creepy perves who are pushing this and the results they are getting are being followed by a massive group of "ordinary" men - nto activists, not trans, just ordinary men who think it would be pretty cool to see 14 yo old girls taking their clothes off, maybe talk to them, maybe more..

Sex offenders of this type are very large in number, they usually target girls between about 12 and 18 >> women know because we have met them, lots of them, most of us. The men who wank in the bushes, who follow you, who whisper stuff to you on the bus, the ones who get their dick out on teh tube when there is no-one else around... There are stacks of them everywhere and this opens up a whole lovely new load of opportunities for them.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 16:43

I mean yes, I agree with you.

Lots of men seem to think that these men are few and far between.

Women know they are commonplace.

Men dont' know becasue they don't listen, it's not like we aren't complaining about it every 5 mins. Men don't want to know.

gendercritter · 22/09/2018 16:43

You're so spot on NothingonTelly I wish you weren't but you are. It's quite chilling reading your post

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 16:45

Why women are pushing this shit is beyond me.

I literally can't understand it.

Like GG on teh one hand "oh sexism is terrible read our new report of girls experiences including sexual harrassment in school by boys" and OTOH "girl has no physical basis in reality a girl is anyone who says they are a girl". These two things are incompatible.

KennDodd · 22/09/2018 16:58

Does anybody hear anything about transmen and where theyre going? In that i havent heard a word about transmen demanding access to male changing rooms, prisons, sports etc. I'm sure they must know these places would be unsafe for them and that's why. But where are they going? Are they still in with the women?

seafret · 22/09/2018 16:59

Thank you all. Yes I fully understand the problems with self ID and the falseness and awfulness of the whole thing.

I was just wondering if the gov or anyone had even bothered to outline how they would investigate and enforce the "offence punishable by up to two years in prison" that Ereshkigal mentions and that Snappity used to throw around all the time.

That they can't or don;t see the need to speaks volumes, but I wanted to see if there was some offical wording to focus on ripping up.

OP posts:
ZuttZeVootEeVro · 22/09/2018 17:05

Like GG on teh one hand "oh sexism is terrible read our new report of girls experiences including sexual harrassment in school by boys" and OTOH "girl has no physical basis in reality a girl is anyone who says they are a girl". These two things are incompatible.

Is it something to do with the idea that only 'bad lads' would harass girls, and everyone under LGBT is a victim themselves, therefore incapable of harassing girls?

I don't think the two years imprisonment thing is anything like what those posters suggested. It would more likely be for giving false documents, not for falsely claiming to be trans (how can that be proved) or for detransitioning.

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