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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Last night the Fire Brigade Union gave in

75 replies

TimeForDebate · 21/09/2018 08:19

The FBU has voted in favour of self ID - one of the few unions to abstain from voting at TUC has fallen. Women are a minority in the Fire & Rescue Service. 30 women firefighters have signed a letter of protest so far:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/20/backlash-fire-brigades-union-votes-favour-gender-self-identification/

OP posts:
GrimDamnFanjo · 21/09/2018 16:29

Eh? Does anyone know whether the recruitment criteria differs for females compared to males regarding physical strength or fitness?

2BorNot2Bvocal · 21/09/2018 17:06

Eh? Does anyone know whether the recruitment criteria differs for females compared to males regarding physical strength or fitness?

No, there is no different test in this county. Women have to meet the same standard.

Dany Cotton chairs Women In Fire which is a networking group. Be nice to know if they were consulted?

OlennasWimple · 21/09/2018 17:19

Did we really think the macho men of the fire service were on the side of women?

The macho men have wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and nieces - even if they dont' support women's rights because it's the right thing to do, I presumed that they would object to their nearest and dearest being forced to share spaces like changing rooms with fully intact men.

Bet the woke dude bros who voted this through think that TW are Hayley Cropper types, not David Challenor types

GenderApostate · 21/09/2018 17:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CrackpotsArePots · 21/09/2018 17:22

Olennas

Yes, they do, but this is man's work innit? Work is work. The braider picture is something some people can't seem to grasp.

CrackpotsArePots · 21/09/2018 17:22

broader

OldCrone · 21/09/2018 17:28

She said: “Self declaration means going through a long and complex process. People don’t go through it just so they can use the women’s toilets.”

Where have they got this idea from? The people arguing for self ID don't seem to realise that it does away with the long and complex process, and that's the whole point of it.

Self ID - it's in the name. I say I am so I am. That's it.

2BorNot2Bvocal · 21/09/2018 17:36

As with political parties members of the FBU could vote with their feet www.fireofficers.org.uk/new/index.php/about-us open to any rank or www.frsa.org.uk/ (No vested interest in either.)

Materialist · 21/09/2018 17:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurkingWaspi · 21/09/2018 18:39

I'm shocked, I really am.
What's going on in the FBU?Confused

ShotsFired · 21/09/2018 19:11

A few months(?) ago a whole bunch of people had a conniption fit when a senior Fire Fighter suggested renaming Fireman Sam to Firefighter Sam. As in, changing it to the actual name of the job!

So to quote the magnificent CJ Cregg, "outraged? Im barely surprised"

bd67th · 21/09/2018 20:04

This needs to be a flat refusal by women to go along with it.

How? What does this "flat refusal" look like?

xxmarksthespot · 22/09/2018 08:17

The macho men have wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and nieces

Who they think should stay out of "men's" jobs, and any other woman who comes into their territory is fair game.

The is a comment on twitter from someone who used to work in the fire brigade, saying that the women's toilets had to be locked and female officers given their own keys - otherwise the men would go in there and deliberately leave a mess in there.

This is how disgusting and hateful men are. Ordinary "decent" men that expect the public to revere them as heroes will harass women and literally shit all over their toilets and shower facilities - just because they can, just to show who is really in charge, and that they don't want the women there.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 22/09/2018 17:01

How? What does this "flat refusal" look like?

Good question and the debate starts here.

For a start, refusing to validate the ridiculous jargon and reality denying lines by discussing them, trying to rationally disprove them or arguing back since to an extent that validates them. A lot more 'no' and a lot less engagement may be a clearer message.

Women knowing that they can request alternative provision if they are not happy changing/using a service etc with a male bodied person no matter how that person identifies, (and if they are deaf to reminders that kindness and inclusion towards men matters more than their privacy, dignity and safety) and sharing that information. If necessary, lets have 30 mothers and children changing in the managers office and a broom cupboard while Karen White has the changing room to themselves.

Push for a third space specific to biological, born women - and I don't care if we have to call it the AFAB or Bigot or vagina fetishist space, I really don't. Call me whatever names you like, so long as you provide me with a space for changing/toileting/hospital ward etc where there are no men, irrespective of how they identify. Identify out of gender based spaces and insist on sex based ones.

It's a start.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 22/09/2018 17:08

Another line and one I've reached very very recently; I don't care how long ago someone identified, how long they have lived as a woman, what surgery they have had, what hormones they have taken, how they physically appear or how they dress, or what certificates or ID they have. If they were born male, they are male and shouldn't be in women only provision in situations of privacy, dignity and vulnerability. I am not happy to share those spaces with them.

As Datun has so brilliantly pointed out: once you realise that all these male born people arguing over the criteria which of them get to access biological women and their spaces while keeping the others out, it's just men discussing where exactly to place the boot on women's necks. Women aren't even being consulted on this. It's now been proved beyond all doubt that allowing any male born people access creates a moving line, it's too easy to exploit and it dehumanises, uses and subjugates women. Women only spaces for female born people and third spaces now need to be provided in all situations.

theOtherPamAyres · 22/09/2018 17:54

Repeal the loophole in the Equality Act that has given these blokes access to female-only facilities and services.

They don't need the GRA. They've got self- i/d already.

Charliethefeminist · 23/09/2018 02:28

How about just making it legal to ask if someone has a GRC. That would be a start.

ChattyLion · 23/09/2018 04:10

I agree about there needs to be a right to ask for GRC as an immediate minimum. The ‘oh but the long and complex process weeds out chancers’ is a completely misleading false reassurance which fools the general public.
Every time this line is trotted out, everyone needs to point out the very important other part of that ‘certification process’ (like no other I have come across!) which is that even once you have been awarded it, nobody else can ever ask to see the GRC certificate!,

So that obliterates any reassurance we might have wanted to try to take from that process: The GRC process is meaningless in terms of providing assurance to women.

Nobody can assume anything about the motives of a man in the women’s toliets, however he presents, yet we are all being silenced into being unquestioning about his right to be there, because you know TWAW! And you can all DIAF TERFs!

Yet (I have slowly come to understand) GRA is a false reassurance anyway. Male pattern offending persists at the same rates after transition. So statistically, women girls and young children are much safer without any adult male- bodied person in their female toilets. The only harm reduction that we know works, is to keep men out of women’s spaces where women are vulnerable. Job done.

We should all be deeply suspicious of any lobby group that is trying to attack safeguarding norms of children and women- we should be asking why do they want do this? What’s in it for them? Why should anyone get a free pass? (Especially when we can’t even ask to see said free pass Hmm)
Safeguarding applies to everyone and it is everyone’s responsibility to uphold. Otherwise there is no safeguarding.

It’s kind of like me boarding the bus I get to work saying that I identify as someone who’s paid for a ticket and i’m being discriminated against by being asked to show one. Then leaving it up to the driver to deal with me, or telling the enforcement team that they are mean and unkind, or threatening them with calling their employers to say they are prejudiced against me, or me just getting violent to them straight out for questioning me because you know, they offended me by asking to see my ticket! On a bus! The bastards!!.

(*none of these scenarios would work for me btw because you know, female socialisation and small female stature and lesser than male strength in my case but I hope my point is clear)

So It’s either continue to take universal precautions already evidenced to reduce risk and minimise harm.. or move to self ID and stop pretending we have any safeguarding.

Women and kids need to protect themselves somehow- no way I can see of doing this apart from literally staying at home- and now to add insult to injury we are transphobic, ‘sad TERFs’ or if we complain.

Keep your penis out of the Ladies’!

Btw This ^ lack of critical thinking and decision making taken by men is how come I and my female colleagues have to share normal unadapted women’s-labelled toilets (and a shower facility) with Male-bodied people at our workplace.

It’s up to us individually to complain about it and we don’t even dare speak to each other about it which is why I haven’t and how I know I will get accusations of bullying etc if I complain even if I am legally and morally right, because everyone has absorbed this message that TW=W.

(Instead of TW=TW. Which is absolutely fine but third space for intimate stuff is needed. Not OK to appropriate women’s spaces).

And Guess what, nobody uses the shower facilities at my work any longer.
If I was less busy I would go outside and find a cafe or pub toilet to piss in and desk with my periods during work hours but you know what, I don’t have time, it’s not fair on the cafe or pub and I shouldn’t fucking well have to do that.

I really can’t think how oppressive and awful for female fire fighters that is going to feel when they desperately need and want a shower after a long dangerous shift dealing with fires and smoke and bloody emergencies and then if they complain about sharing with male bodied people the female firefighters are in the wrong because TWAW! And fuck off and DIAF TERF!*

*I mean, the utterly sick sad irony of this decision by this committee of male-only firefighters. Sad

Sorry to go on so long, but this is all a bit close to home with the Pips Bunce awards for women at work shite and now this from the male firefighters. Sad

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 23/09/2018 04:41

This is so true that it bears repeating. Along with Lord Acton’s maxim; “all that is necessary for evil to flourish in the world is for enough good [people] to do nothing.”

I think women are genuinely bewildered by the realisation that most men have no real interest in women’s fight for justice. They’ll reluctantly accede to rights as long as they are not inconvenienced.

I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;...Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 23/09/2018 04:42

I’ll also add that I have long experience of the emergency services, including fire-fighters, and the misogyny surprises me not at all.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/09/2018 04:59

"I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;...Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

YY

I’ll also add that I have long experience of the emergency services, including fire-fighters, and the misogyny surprises me not at all.

Yes the emergency workers services where I am are bastions of misogyny - men's work you see /s

There's another example of men (some would call them dim-wits) not seeing women but only themselves and their sex. So they vote in favour of their sex. The majority of the human species doesn't get a look in or a thought as they are women and there just for the grace of men. Property of theirs but never peers.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 23/09/2018 10:09

Asking to see a GRC won't work. Bearing in mind Alex Sharpe's comment that it's more important to protect a trans person's identity than for a victim of sexual fraud at the hands of a trans person to be allowed to claim a crime and any justice for it. Bear in mind too how often you see trotted out 'but how will you spots them/are you going to do a genital check at the door' which translates as 'whatever legal boundaries are set by and for women, they will not be respected'.

I keep thinking about this with growing, powerless rage - which of course is a MRAs wet dream - that if I walk out of an open plan changing room where a male bodied person has taken advantage of self ID to expose himself and ask for somewhere different to change, I will be in effect viewed as committing a hate crime.

There really is no option but for women and girls to just quietly, silently, stop using public places. I doubt they will be seen or their numbers measured, exactly the way lesbians (actual ones) have had to respond. lesbian organisations have gone underground and disappeared from public sight to avoid the inevitable take over from male bodied people with agendas, and now the public face of lesbians is the male ones with their cheerleaders, saying 'look, no one here minds, so there's no such thing as a female lesbian with a problem about this'.

It's insidious, it's morally abhorrent and I am bewildered that in 2018 the government is either has it in this much for women, or is this unbelievably, criminally stupid.

arranfan · 23/09/2018 13:27

Misogyny calls to misogyny when it senses an environment or culture that permits it.

Some men found the Yorkshire Ripper amusing. Outside Leeds football stadium badges were sold with the slogan, "Leeds United - More feared than the Yorkshire Ripper." During one match, when police had hassled Leeds fans to stop taunting their opponents, loud chants of "Ripper 12, police nil" rose up from the crowd. During drinking sessions they would sing, "One Yorkshire Ripper, there's only one Yorkshire Ripper."
www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/dec/13/suffolkmurders.gender

President's Club and the 2003 Bernard Manning case (notorious because the men who joined in were legal professionals):

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/01/story-presidents-club-all-too-familiar-women-working-hospitality

www.personneltoday.com/hr/lords-seek-to-limit-effects-of-bernard-manning-case-rule/

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/09/2018 15:09

Bearing in mind Alex Sharpe's comment that it's more important to protect a trans person's identity than for a victim of sexual fraud at the hands of a trans person to be allowed to claim a crime and any justice for it. Bear in mind too how often you see trotted out 'but how will you spots them/are you going to do a genital check at the door' which translates as 'whatever legal boundaries are set by and for women, they will not be respected'

Exactly the point made by Jeremy Coid, emeritus professor of forensic psychiatry - see other thread re his Times letter

Misogyny calls to misogyny when it senses an environment or culture that permits it.

Misogynists know no limits so look for areas that aren't being patrolled by law enforcement

Knicknackpaddyflak · 23/09/2018 15:41

Exactly the point made by Jeremy Coid, emeritus professor of forensic psychiatry - see other thread re his Times letter

Thank you for the sign posting! What a well stated letter that is. Straight to the jugular of the issue.

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