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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Commons report on Trans Prisoners. Published today.

43 replies

ImPreCis · 19/09/2018 21:50

Haven’t had time to read through all of this yet, only just seen that this was published today.
However the figures show that Trans prisoner numbers have almost doubled from 2016 to 2017 and the MoJ suspect that this underestimates the actual numbers due to the way the figures are collated.

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7420/CBP-7420.pdf

OP posts:
DuckingGoodPJs · 20/09/2018 05:57

On the 2009 case, here is a report at the time.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6138325/Transsexual-prisoner-wins-right-to-be-in-female-prison.html

She was originally convicted of manslaughter in 2001 and jailed for five years after smothering her boyfriend with a pillow and strangling him with a pair of tights.

She says that, although at first accepting of her gender dysphoria, he moved to hostility when she became increasingly feminised and she lost control after a row.

Less than a week after her release on licence two years later, "A" attacked a shop assistant, forcing her into a back room, tied her up with a suspender belt and tried to rape her.

She was given a life sentence for that offence under a "two strikes" system following the manslaughter conviction.

But sure, an upstanding candidate to be put into the female estate, for less make-up and clothing restrictions, apparently the reasons.

Being a violent sex offender should (in a sane world) really preclude one from being put in the female estate, particularly one packing 'lady peen'. Clothing and make-up restrictions are NOT a human rights violation.

KataraJean · 20/09/2018 06:57

What has happened to people’s brains? Why are they not engaging them?

TerfsUp · 20/09/2018 08:02

Lord Patel can fuck off.

(This morning I have a long list of people / organisations that can fuck off.)

Charliethefeminist · 20/09/2018 08:13

Would welcome your views on this thought. This is a bit of research by the HoC library. It must have been requested or commissioned. So if you're a Secretary, minister, shadow or committee member, or just a regular MP, why would you not ask you Equalities team, including lawyers, for information and a background report about trans inmates?? It feels like this is a response to the question 'how the fuck did we get into this mess, what can we do about it and does case law prevent us from reversing?'

The HoC library is supposed to be completely neutral, maybe that's why it comes from them, not the Equalities team who pride themselves on trans advocacy. Maybe that's why the request went there, because whoever asked for it wants a realistic answer about how we can stop locking women and children up with paedophile rapists.

TufVoyaging · 20/09/2018 08:49

"it is important that policy for the majority should not be founded upon the highly complex considerations raised by a minority"
Why is this not applied when considering the women already housed in female prisons?

LangCleg · 20/09/2018 09:27

So I had a skim of the report and - for fuck's fucking sake - have I got this right?

The report endlessly quotes and says current prison policy is based on the Maria Miller 2016 enquiry.

The Maria Miller 2016 enquiry ignored all the first stage written submissions that were gender critical and used only evidence from the trans lobby.

The ignored written evidence included warnings from prison governors and the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists about the dangers of putting male trans prisoners into women's prisons.

So this entire damaging prison policy is completely down to Maria Miller nobbling her report?

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, I'M ABOUT TO HAVE A RAGE STROKE

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 09:33

So this entire damaging prison policy is completely down to Maria Miller nobbling her report?

Yep.

OvaHere · 20/09/2018 09:35

I'm no expert by a long shot but a quick google suggests that there would be a case around males, in particular sex offenders, being placed with females.

There is a UN convention around torture in UK prisons and to my mind this is both mental (for all female prisoners) and physical (for the ones attacked) torture.

Is there any recourse to take it to the UN? Would the affected prisoners have to initiate it themselves?

BettyDuMonde · 20/09/2018 10:28

From Stephen Whittle’s (tran FtM) written briefing to Caitlyn Jenner for Channel 4’s GenderQuake show:

......

  1. Trans Prisoners
In 2016, the Government held an inquiry after several suicides of trans prisoners. As a consequence, new, improved, Prison Rules were agreed.

The UK doesn’t have many transitioned, trans prisoners at any one time; current numbers are between 40 and 50.

Unfortunately, the Rules don’t allow trans prisoners to be placed in a prison of their preferred gender role until they have obtained legal gender recognition.

Very few trans prisoners will have obtained legal gender recognition; they rarely know it is available, and if they do they often believe (erroneously) that gender recognition will be too difficult or too expensive.

The new Prison Rules require a prompt cases conference on the incarceration of a trans person. The conference must include and listen to the concerns of the trans prisoner.

Unfortunately, the rather macho-prison service isn’t noted for its trans friendly attitudes. Few prison staff have the time or interest to make sure a case conference happens, never mind help a prisoner to change their legal name and gender.

We regularly are in touch with prisoners who are struggling to have their hormone treatment promptly prescribed, frequently leaving them distressed, and angry – a guaranteed way of ensuring they lose the plot and break the core prison rules, getting further into trouble and being further isolated.

Consequently trans prisoners:

end up in the ‘wrong prison’,
spend weeks without their correct hormone therapies,
are terrified of assault (and it is a real threat, with compensation often paid for the physical injuries received),
are isolated, without friends, and frequently placed into effective solitary (for their own protection),
Many become mentally unwell, and become obsessed with suicidal ideation.

PFC volunteers write to many prisoners and arrange to send in copies of the Prison rules, to send in clothing and shoes purchased from charity shops, and to provide a pen-pal friendship. Mostly though PFC Volunteers spend their time writing to prison governors requesting (begging) that the PSI rules are abided by.

The problem is not the Prison Rules, it is the failure of Prisons and Prison staff to use the rules to help the trans prisoners in their establishments.

A lack of training in the Rules hasn’t helped, and even offers of free training for Prison staff are turned down, because of staff shortages, they cannot consider releasing staff to attend for the hour it would take to train them.

......

Whittle is co founder of Press For Change, who were the key players in getting the original GRA through in 2004.

BettyDuMonde · 20/09/2018 10:36

Is Whittle downplaying for political reasons (there are at least 125 trans prisoners, not counting ones with GRCs, Male bodied trans prisoners ARE able to access women’s prisons without a GRC) or just innocently.mistaken?

Considering this is Whittle’s life’s work, i’m going with option 1.

R0wantrees · 20/09/2018 10:53

2013 GUardian article on formation and influence of Press for CHange:

(extract)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says [Christine] Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press"

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

R0wantrees · 20/09/2018 11:02

Role of Stephen Whittle & Claire McCann acknowledged in the introduction to Women and Equalities Committee
Transgender Equality
First Report of Session 2015–16

"18. We are very grateful to our Specialist Advisor, Stephen Whittle OBE, Professor of Equalities Law at Manchester Metropolitan University, for his help and guidance throughout the inquiry. We are also grateful to Claire McCann, of Cloisters Chambers, for giving us her expert legal opinion."

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

Claire McCann was one of the panel of legal experts at the recent WEP Conferece discussing gender self-id proposals.
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers?pg=3

Stephen Whittle:

Provided briefings for some of those who were panelists on Ch 4's GenderQuake Debate:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3249035-Stephen-Whittle-s-blog-on-Genderquake-with-a-detailed-briefing-for-panelists

Commenting on MN thread he started April 2018:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

Involved with drafting of the Yogykcarta legislation:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

2014 Described as a 'superhero' and featured prominantly in the CBBC 'I am Leo':
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x_u2cs8DpI

LangCleg · 20/09/2018 11:08

I honestly can't think of any post I want to make here that wouldn't get me banned.

hackmum · 20/09/2018 11:09

LangCleg: "The Maria Miller 2016 enquiry ignored all the first stage written submissions that were gender critical and used only evidence from the trans lobby.

The ignored written evidence included warnings from prison governors and the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists about the dangers of putting male trans prisoners into women's prisons.

So this entire damaging prison policy is completely down to Maria Miller nobbling her report?"

Looks like it. And don't let's forget that the Miller report quoted extensively from Jess Bradley, now under suspension from the NUS for posting images of their erect penis on a blog. So exactly the kind of person you'd want influencing a sensitive area of government policy involving sex offenders.

TerfsUp · 20/09/2018 11:14

Dear lord. The lunatics are running the asylum.

R0wantrees · 20/09/2018 11:28

Janice Turner's interview with Maria Miller MP July 2017
(extract)
"The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?" (Continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

R0wantrees · 20/09/2018 11:34

The role of TELI (Trans Equality Legal Initiative) needs to be considered.

Co-founders include Jess Bradley, Tara Hewitt and Michelle Hudson.

"The Trans Equality Legal Initiative is a new initiative aiming to provide the ultimate forum for the discussion of trans rights in the United Kingdom. Covering important legal areas such as healthcare, education, justice and international protection, the initiative will be at the forefront of trans rights, bringing together experts and activists from across the legal and LGBT spheres.

It is our belief that strategic litigation is a very important tool in the advancement of trans rights, and this will be at the forefront of our efforts as we explore the various issues facing the trans community."

Inaugural Conference November 2016:
www.teli.org.uk/annual-conference/

LangCleg · 20/09/2018 12:12

%&$#?@!

My contempt for Maria Miller is inexpressible other than by grawfix.

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