Finally think I understand what "identify as" means

[WombOfOnesOwn]

For a long time, I wondered what it meant, when trans people who had no intent of taking transitioning steps claimed to identify as a woman/man.

I think I know, now! So that's something.

It appears to be this: to identify as something is to wish to be witnessed and judged by others according to social standards set for that class.

This is exactly, when you think about it, what this nebulous notion of "identity" is. Which is interesting because it changes a bit of the classic Blanchard categories.

Blanchard identified gay young transitioners and older autogynephiles, but the lines are blurring. And now FTMs are more common than MTFs among younger age groups.

What if what we're really looking at are two kinds of trans people: those who transition to fit in, and those who transition to stand out?

We see these patterns, if they're structured these ways, in a very parallel way across the sexes. There are transitioners, often gay or lesbian, who don't conform in any way to societal gender roles, and who would fit much better into the stereotypes used to judge members of the opposite sex.

And then there are transitioners who want to stand out and be different. This is why so many of the autogynephile men and the early-20s fetishist university TRA crowd are absolutely bog-standard men, who adhere to every male stereotype imaginable: too many video games, too much porn, don't pick up after themselves, low hygiene standards, unable to commit to relationships or put anyone above themselves.

But because they've been that way as men all their lives, and because they fetishize women who play video games, are into porn, etc., they think they'd be hot stuff if they just got judged as being hot nerd girls. Suddenly, playing video games wouldn't make them normal and boring, it makes them exciting and interesting, wow, a girl who plays video games and likes porn, who wouldn't want that (in their mind)?!

The same phenomenon explains the heterosexual female transitioners who fetishize "soft bois" and gay male relationships while often taking few steps to transition in any permanent physical way. They think that their proclivities that are currently marked as "feminine" and "basic," in the parlance of our times, would be viewed as awesome, interesting, unusual characteristics for a man.

Once I realized what "identify as" really meant, it made sense to me that there's a category of trans people who really believe it's more important for you to use their pronouns than it is for them to even attempt to "pass" as the opposite sex. It's why they think their identity is being stolen to the point of feeling like they're being murdered by words: If other people don't buy in, then with this idea, they are essentially killing the desired identity.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me until now that this entire 21st century social media contagion phenomenon of "gender identity" isn't about actually seeing the world "as" the opposite sex, but about wanting to be seen by others in a new way. In a world where people feel ever more judged and do more and more "curation" of their "brand" and image, they want to feel what's often called "empowerment" about which standards they're judged by.

Your description of the bog-standard completely unremarkable man making himself more 'interesting' by being female is actually scarily dead-on for one person I know. In his case I also believe there was a dimension of hating the fact that he was a member of the oppressor sex class, possibly due to something that a close female relative had been through. He wasn't five minutes into his 'transition' before he started talking about the misogyny he'd been dealing with. It was like he was desperate to experience sexism, very strange (and appropriation in my opinion) .

Now maybe a man who passes very well at a glance could experience some misdirected misogyny on the level of cat-calling etc, but you'll have to take my word for it when I say that there is absolutely no way this man has experienced direct misogyny because nobody is reading him as a woman. Though I don't doubt he has had negative experiences due to adopting a gender non-conforming appearance.

@PinkCherry

It's hard to find the words....

In your case, the defendant just had to introduce a little piece of information that made the jury think that the Crown had failed to prove the assault 'beyond reasonable doubt'. It's a high bar to prove a case and juries get it wrong.

(Many's the time I have left court in a tearful rage because of a perverse jury. On the other hand, I get a sense of satisfaction when they decide that one charge is proved but another isn't, and they have to sit through a discussion about the defendant's long list of previous convictions. They squirm or their jaws hit the floor. )

For me, your rape was taken seriously and acknowledged, but you didn't get Justice. I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about your dreadful experience.

A transfeminine man has no evidence whatsoever that they are a woman. In fact, all the evidence points to them being a man. There is not only 'reasonable doubt' about their story, but incredulity at their delusion. There might even be sympathy for a mental health condition, but facts are facts. You would think that nothing would persuade a jury to validate them.

However, as you have so rightly illustrated, and I have seen for myself, juries can be perverse: they can be reluctant to see and believe what's in front of them (for whatever reason).

We have seen the government behave exactly like a perverse jury - validating the lie and turning off the sound from evidence and science.

The grassroots movement to oppose the GRA is about validating the female sex, beyond reasonable doubt.

That bdsm/mapplethorpe stuff is the middle of my imaginary Venn diagram, with transgenderism on one side and modern primitism on the other. Some overlap between bdsm and transgenderism, some overlap between bdsm and modern primitivism. I should probably draw it, badly on the back of a receipt or something!

Tattoos are the outlier, potentially common to all 3, but not necessarily present in any of them.
Tattoos have existed as long as people have. I doubt BDSM or transgenderism have a similarly long history (always happy to be proved wrong and adjust my theories accordingly).

Forearm tattoos are common in post op transmen as a part of the trans disguise - a literal disguise for the donor site scars on the forearm. This is what I would consider an overlap, rather than a shared motivation.

It appears to be this: to identify as something is to wish to be witnessed and judged by others according to social standards set for that class.

I recently heard this stated by a young transman who was patiently explaining to a bemused colleague. It was almost word for word though they said want, not wish!

Thinking of the two young women I know who are 'trans,' the first is clearly deeply troubled and struggles enormously with her body. She is taking T and appears, sadly, to have had top surgery. She has been troubled for a decade but it's recent thing that she labels herself trans. She gets on with things quietly.

Then there's another young woman. She has been very noisy about wanting people to understand her identity. She insists on neutral pronouns, is seemingly part of a pack of other uni students who go around getting very angry at any perceived transphobia. She's embraced polygamy. She's calling gerself an 'enby' (non-binary) but has made absolutely no modifications to her body or clothes at all. Do I think her transness is performative? Absolutely. And being nosy on Facebook, all of her social group play computer games or read certain fantasy novels and all are very heavily into Harry Potter (they're all around the age of 23-25). A great deal of their lives are played out online.

Getting on thread to read later, as v v interesting.

I should probably draw it, badly on the back of a receipt or something!

Yes please. And take a pic & upload it. I love a Venn Diagram

I think there’s a kernel of misogyny here - that idea that someone should be able to control not only their implications but other people’s inferences. It’s one of the key reasons I struggle with trans-identity.

Most women are socialised to internalise responsibility for other people’s view of them but key to this - they don’t dictate it: rather, men do and women accept that.

So for transwoman who claim to have a female essence or some kind of inherent understanding of female socialisation to then dictate how others should infer their identity doesn’t ring true. It reminds me, at its core, of male agression.

Tattoos have existed as long as people have. I doubt BDSM or transgenderism have a similarly long history (always happy to be proved wrong and adjust my theories accordingly).

Apologies for derail. But religions have a lot of BDSM. Penitent self-flagellation, torture, sexual guilt, in fact Christendom is all about redemption by someone being tortured to death. Also 'obedience', 'submission' and worship of deities and their human representatives is central. Although it's not obvious how long all that's been going on.

this is a great thread. thanks for starting it OP

all are very heavily into Harry Potter (they're all around the age of 23-25).

It is not a concidence that JK Rowling is watched like a hawk for even the mildest of transgressions against the ideology.

In a way, they believe they own JK Rowling. She is part of their identity. So if she plays ball she will be fêted. Anything else and the retribution must be swift and hard.

When I was lurking some time ago, I came across a striking term that stayed with me.

The poster described female toilets as Validation Booths.

I've used the phrase a number of times since then. It attracts a startled look ("what are you on about, validation booths?") then a nod of understanding: ("Ah yes, I get it").

This thread is great, thank you OP. (And I must remember ‘validation booths’!)

What if what we're really looking at are two kinds of trans people: those who transition to fit in, and those who transition to stand out?

That's very clear and makes sense to me.

Really interesting thread, thank you for starting it. I had a shock a few weeks ago when a long standing male (straight and married) friend decided, in his 70s, that he was a woman. Within a short space of time, he has decided to go the whole hog with the treatment - he is pushing ahead with the hormone therapy and the surgery option - and seems to be revelling in the attention he’s getting. Of course he’s being cheerleaded on by most people he knows and he, I’m sure, is enjoying the attention it’s bringing him. He is putting out YouTube videos that record his “journey”.

I’m sure he is one of those people who is doing it for attention. Whenever I raised feminist issues with him over the years, he would usually disagree respectfully and would give him his opinion (to quote him) ‘from a male perspective’. He even said this to me a matter of weeks before he announced he was now a trans woman. So I find it hard to believe that he really suffers from gender dysphoria. If he does, I can only think he has convinced himself and he has now immersed himself in trans culture and there’s no going back.

He is also tattooed and pierced all over (acquired later on in life) and I wondered if this wish to mutilate his body now (I can’t see it any other way) is an extension of the previous work he has had done.

Rather than validate what he‘s doing, I asked him if he was ok and asked him to consider what he was doing before going for surgery. That met with short shrift. He wants me to support him, not check he is ok. But I can’t and I am also very cynical about his reasons for doing this. I don’t think he’s doing it on purpose either. I think he has genuinely convinced himself.

Whatever is going on, I feel incredibly sad and a little angry about it.

We see these patterns, if they're structured these ways, in a very parallel way across the sexes. There are transitioners, often gay or lesbian, who don't conform in any way to societal gender roles, and who would fit much better into the stereotypes used to judge members of the opposite sex. And then there are transitioners who want to stand out and be different. This is why so many of the autogynephile men and the early-20s fetishist university TRA crowd are absolutely bog-standard men
Really well observed, great thread OP.
Do you think this is why people have different levels of sympathy for the two disparate groups? The desired outcomes are similar but different. Both require audience participation, but those who transition to fit in like to go stealth (unwitting audience participation?) I've met some who wouldn't be recognised as trans or as their birth sex (rare but they do exist). Those people don't advertise their trans status at all. OTOH we have real life trolling from Danielle Muscato or Travis Alabanza, who aren't very sympathetic characters at all.
I wonder if someone will transition purely as performance art?

There was a definite normalisation of BDSM through body morphication becoming mainstream. I remember when everyone started getting their navels pierced. It was the done thing, then it was eyebrows, then the centre of the nose, then tongues, then lips, then it was nipples and dicks and clitorises

I've actually got my clitoris pierced. And my navel but that came second, bizarrely enough That was my one little bit of almost teen (22) rebellion. I don't have any tattoos. I agree that some of these young uns adopt more exotic gender identities because it's rebellious and exciting and trendy. And sometimes also furry ones etc.

So for transwoman who claim to have a female essence or some kind of inherent understanding of female socialisation to then dictate how others should infer their identity doesn’t ring true. It reminds me, at its core, of male agression.

YY. Me too. It's classic narcissism though.