How John McDonnell wooed Mumsnet - James Kirkup

[womensvoicesmatter]

I must admit I was pleasantly surprised that he tackled the women's rights / self ID questions, I thought he'd avoid them!

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/how-john-mcdonnell-wooed-mumsnet/

As a gesture of goodwill and good faith, I think John should make Sanctimonious Morph write a #nodebate mea culpa and ensure it's featured on the Grauniad homepage for a week.

Oh yes!

Rather cynically, was this just his version of Corbyn saying he would meet Linda Bellos and then doing no such thing?

I fear so.

Like another poster said, if they're gullible and stupid enough to be taken in by TRA craziness, then what other nonsense will we be forced to accept as a legitimate issue if they got into power.
If you can swallow utter bollocks with looking into it too deeply or even giving a bit of thought re the safeguarding issues, you're not up for the job of running a country.

If Kirkup is right and there are loads of MPs who want to speak up but are too scared, this will have given them a bit of confidence. The shadow chancellor has come on MN and said he is consulting with WPUK. A couple of months ago this would have been unimaginable.

Considering his shocking cowardice over brexit (we have to respect this illegally won vote to appease the far right) he's been brave here. I hate that we're at a place where just saying you're prepared to listen to women is a brave thing to do. But here we are.

Things are shifting.

3 days ago Penny Mordaunt launched an urgent inquiry into the exponential rise in the number of girls referred to gender identity services. 2 days later McDonnell signs up for this webchat. He will have been briefed on the Stella Creasey and the NSPCC webchats (and probably a few more). He will have known what he was getting into. He didn't run away, GC questions were asked, not deleted, answered badly, but answered, nobody appears to have been banned. It's shit that this counts as progress but it does. This is progress.

It's well past time for senior politicians to get away with 'look at me, I'm talking to WPUK, I'm listening to women' and no further comment. They now need to engage with what we're saying.

No politician can be taken seriously on women's rights unless they have a working definition of 'woman'.

It's time for all MPs who care about women to speak up.

It's time for all MPs who care about women to speak up

Definitely!

& urgently!
James Kirkup: 'If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed'
(extract)
"The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it.

But even by the dismal standards of the trans debate, where supposedly responsible figures routinely shirk their duties to appease a small, aggressive group of activists and lobbyists, John Bercow’s decision strikes me as repulsive, a disgusting abdication of responsibility that brings shame on its author and his office."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3369090-To-ask-you-to-care-that-ANOTHER-paedophile-MALE-who-targeted-girls-who-claims-to-be-a-woman-has-been-moved-to-a-womans-prison-Having-got-a-GRC-IN-PRISON-FFS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3368746-Dangerous-sex-offender-transferred-to-womens-prison-Peterborough

Further urgent questions for MPs to consider:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

McDonnel has not even been put on Terfblocker, so it looks like no one is believing he gives a shit about women’s rights.

From The Sun: ''MALE & STALE' John McDonnell tried to woo mums with a webchat on Mumsnet… and it didn’t go well'
(extract)
"IF John McDonnell thought a chat with some mums online would be a piece of cake, he had no idea what he was letting himself in for.

The Marxist shadow chancellor was torn apart by the formidable users of Mumsnet in a live chat, where he was blasted as "patronising" and "evasive". (continues)

Many of them grilled him about his position on transgender rights, an issue that has recently divided the party.

Some mums are concerned about what they consider to be trans rights being promoted at the expense of others.

Labour allows anyone to "self define" and stand on all-women shortlists to become councillors and MPs - a move that has angered many in the party.

But many mothers weren't happy with his attempts to stay on the fence in the debate.

One said: "I want my daughter to be able to get changed to go swimming without a naked penis in proximity. Some people want to self ID so that their naked penis is in proximity to my daughter.

"Where's the solution that keeps both parties happy?" (continues)

www.thesun.co.uk/news/7287680/mumsnet-mums-blast-john-mcdonnells-patronising-and-evasive-online-web-chat/

He can say he will consult all he likes but the fact is that they didn't, they haven't. They wilfully trample on women's rights, throw women out of the party for questioning their misogyny. Nah mate, this doesn't give me any hope at all.

Well I agree with the majority of posters on here and the thrust of the Sun article. However there is a glimmer of hope that maybe James is playing a game. By building up MCDonnell it could actually embolden him and other labour MPs to stand up against what he must personally consider us a load of horseshit.

On the whole I was not impressed and I am liberal and I have always voted left. Deigning to meet with some women to discuss women’s rights when they’ve been actively dismantling them is bullshit. Offering to speak to Jewish groups like it’s some massive concession is bullshit. Brexit is bullshit.

Any prime minister at the time would have invaded Iraq because it went with what the Americans wanted. I look back at Tony Blair’s Labour Party and they did an awful lot of good. If Corbyns Labour think there’s enough middle class students to vote them in then carry on but I feel like there’s a lot of people like me looking at them thinking wtf and not understanding why they can’t see the problems for themselves.

Hold on. A jewish poster has been banned for pointing out another poster's views were antisemitic?!

@mnhq - explain yourselves!!

The Zoe Williams article was patronising crap. But very much in line with The Guardian's editorial policy towards women.

No, Gaby Hinsliffe, I haven't forgotten your article blaming women for being sexually assaulted.

Ugh Zoe Williams is being such a man-pleasing Guardian Cool Girl. How does she not hear the clanging cognitive dissonance around this.

Fairly sure she didn’t find MN a bunch of arses when she was plugging her parenting book..

I also haven’t forgotten her speaking at a women’s event as a pro choice on abortion speaker, complaining about other women writing in the media about their infertility and wish to be a mother.

As if women couldn’t be both pro choice AND want to get pregnant, or be a mother.
Fairly sure she had a column about being a mother once she became one herself and continued writing her own occasional pro choice articles.

However being ignorant and judgemental of other wornen’s actions suits the Guardian’s handmaidenly output perfectly.

That guardian write up was also bullshit. Though I’m very confused as to why so many newspapers and journalists feel what mothers have to say is important and yet when the guardian report on it, it is to sneer and to remind everyone that mothers know fuck all. Facts are sacred my arse.

i thought jk got it seriously wrong and was disappointed, as he's usually on the nail about this.

About Zoe Williams, literally nothing will surprise about the stupidity of the Guardian any more. What surprised me is that people think it has any relevance, apart from as an echo chamber of fuckwitterry.

Late to comment, but I agree there was nothing to rejoice about in John McDonald’s pussyfooting equivocation. As others have said, we watch what the party does, not what it says. Reaffirm that that AWS are for female candidates, as permitted the EA2010 prescribes, and reserve Women’s Officer posts for females & we’ll talk. ‘Til then, the LP can fuck right off.

Reaffirm that that AWS are for female candidates, as permitted the EA2010 prescribes, and reserve Women’s Officer posts for females & we’ll talk.

I think that removing Dawn Butler from role is another prerequisite before I'll even think about a possible return to the Labour fold. John, be aware: we know what she says about us from behind closed doors and we will never accept her as an honest broker with regards to our rights.

I’ll believe actions, not words.

It was positive he came on and engaged. I also think there’s not much compromise possible here - this is an issue where one group is pressing for something that will actively strip rights and protections from another group.

The answer is no. No is not the start of a negotiation.

If labour want my vote (and labour you’ve previously had my vote and I WANT to vote for you) they need to:

Oppose self ID
Commit to women’s rights
Acknowledge that any change to GRA risks making the EA unworkable
Understand and USE the difference between sex and gender - make sure no conflation between the two is happening
Reject the idea that enforcing the sex based exemptions allowed in the EA must be done on a case by case basis - it would make the EA unworkable.
Tackle rampant misogyny and anti Semitism
Tackle the increasing authoritarian streak (no platforming, momentum etc.)

really good point boatyardblues

the LP need to stop breaking the law with regard to all women shortlists, reinstate Jennifer James and give her a sincere apology for the way she's been treated.

then maybe we can talk

If labour want my vote (and labour you’ve previously had my vote and I WANT to vote for you)

This. But be aware: I will never return my vote if women are to be the casualties of any policy agenda. Never.

Perhaps JK is relieved with John McDonnell's concession that this is an issue to be debated. A big step forward from #nodebate.

Who knows whether Labour wants, or is able to, review the detail of proposed changes carefully without the vested interest lobby - and how many are having their wages paid on the back of the transgender diversity agenda - drowning others out. JM may feel he has thrown out a few crumbs and that is enough.

However the acknowledgement that debate is needed, and acceptable, is a good thing in itself, as it will encourage reasonable voices to contribute, balancing the volume behind different arguments.

I note Sarah Vine is in the Mail again today [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6182741/SARAH-VINE-fears-gender-agenda-harming-children.html] . She received a lot of stick about her similar article in August, when even suggesting there was cause for concern was labelled "hate". When looking for the latest article I noted that the previous one received a tremendous number of comments. Presumably McDonnell and Labour have spotted that the Tories are taking, albeit baby, steps towards examining this issue. And fear that, should there be an election before Christmas, they need to be careful to make sure they don't lose votes as a result.

One thing I find disturbing about all this is how NO parties are mopping up the votes labour will lose on this.

If one party supports an idea that polarises people, there’s always another taking the opposite stance to get those votes onside.

But here? For women? Nowt.

We will remember this.

Sorry, clicky link in case anyone wants it

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6182741/SARAH-VINE-fears-gender-agenda-harming-children.html

I find Vine profoundly irritating but she was one of the very first columnists to talk about the issue in a major national paper, for which credit is due.

Perhaps JK is relieved with John McDonnell's concession that this is an issue to be debated. A big step forward from #nodebate.

Yes. I do think it is better than it would have been a year ago. And I wonder what the meeting with WPUK was like.