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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are words so important? Conspiracy theory ramble.

23 replies

Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 11:16

I’m not normally a conspiracy theory person but I’ve been thinking a bit about the policing of language that has been a feature of the trans debate and wondering why words are so important.
A mad ramble but is it any madder than TWAW?

It started with my DD2 struggling with the concept of DD1 currently living in a time zone 8 hours behind us. Rather than listen to my explanation of time zones she announced “Well I think it’s silly, the time should be the same wherever you are in the world”. I pointed out that in that case the time of day would not bear any relation to day/night, so some people would be getting up in the morning at say 20:00. She countered that if you lived there you would just know what part of the day the time related to and get on with it. We agreed cockerels would still crow at dawn, the sun would rise and set, not much would change. Except I for one would be bloody confused. The words and numbers we use for time would have no meaning in relation to the movement of the sun and the moon and the rhythms of the earth. But if you grew up with it you would probably not have any difficulty knowing where to be and when. At least until you moved to another continent across the earth. Anyway, moving on...

I came across a gem from Planned Parenthood Ottawa about teaching sexual and reproductive anatomy without using the words male or female. Personally I don’t know how you can safely teach the subject without using the words, let’s hope those students don’t want to go into sheep farming or any other type of animal husbandry as I think they may struggle if they don’t know what is male and what is female. But they think you can so my thoughts moved on...what if you took a group of ignorant, uneducated teens and dumped them on an island Lord of the Flies style? Soon they might notice that some of the group had dangly bits and some didn’t. With time I imagine nature and biology would assert itself and they might find that some of the group produced babies. They might notice that this never happened to the owners of the dangly bits.
They might notice other secondary sex features too - beards and breasts for instance. They might observe some babies were born with baby sized dangly bits and others were born without them.
Perhaps they would find words for the different types of people and their anatomical appendages.

In short nothing would be different except the language used, biology rules. Part of the trans narrative is manipulating, and policing our use of what had previously been widely understood meanings for common words such as woman, penis (ladydick), teaching anatomy whilst avoiding use of the words male and female etc. Don’t get me wrong. It bloody infuriates me. Why does it matter so much to them when at the end of the day, the majority of humans will fall into one or the other of the two groups I wonder (they might ask why does it matter so much to me)? Maybe teenage pregnancy rates will go up if they don’t have a clear understanding of their anatomy, it certainly seems sadly regressive to me. In the end though language may change but biology won’t change.

The rolling out of self ID, a concept that goes against all common sense, in countries around the world has been extraordinary. Even tiny Malta has self ID - a staunchly Catholic country that only recently passed laws to allow divorce (2011). Is there really such a demand for self ID there? Yet someone has pushed it through.

We know that the trans movement has some very wealthy sponsors, “philanthropists” such as George Soros and Jennifer Pritzker for instance. Anyone who has read Orwell understands how forced uniformity of opinion and language is a major part of enforcing the will of the state and Havel discusses how enforced use of language bolsters power. I don’t think any of these things are a coincidence.

I wonder if these billionaires are sitting in their gated, protected mansions laughing at us all, enjoying the chaos they have unleashed? It makes me wonder if this is just a first step - testing their power, flexing their muscles and honing the techniques for thought and language control, and the manipulation of politicians to help them achieve their aims. So in my madder moments I wonder what their ultimate goal is, what the long term plot is. Why otherwise have they picked on such a minority interest with which to beat the world into submission? Why are they so interested and invested in this of all things?

Why are words so important? Conspiracy theory ramble.
OP posts:
Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 11:21

history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/165havel.html

OP posts:
JLG19 · 18/09/2018 11:31

Wonderful post OP, even if it did take my tired baby brain a while to process it all.

this is just a first step - testing their power, flexing their muscles and honing the techniques for thought and language control, and the manipulation of politicians to help them achieve their aims

Scary thought, but also quite possible.

R0wantrees · 18/09/2018 11:50

I read this article yesterday by Thomas Szasz published in 1979

Its worth reading:

www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

arranfan · 18/09/2018 11:51

We've had several threads here about all of this feeling like a giant field experiment in social control and language is a key component of that.

The enforced language and being compelled to speak lies.

R0wantrees · 18/09/2018 11:53

The shift from focus transwomen /men to non-binary is significant.

Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 11:59

Ah sleep. What is that? Your day is night your night is day. Enjoy your small one JLG19 Smile
Sorry if I am repeating Arranfan I missed previous threads sadly. Any links?
And yes Rowan I don't think I'm quite understanding the significance of that shift but it does seem to be growing in popularity.

OP posts:
Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 12:07

Rowan your archives are legendary. That is a fascinating read especially when I noted it was from 1979. Shame no one listened back then.

OP posts:
arranfan · 18/09/2018 12:12

I more meant that I see your post as an extension and addition to the earlier ones that discussed social psychology, social control, Arendt, the Origins of Fascism etc..

The language is there to unsettle us and make it difficult to identify and talk about the issues. I see the introduction of "non-binary" and "unperson" as extensions of that move to strip people of language.

It puts me in mind of the debate between Ngugi Wa Thiongo and Chinua Achebe on the politics of language: www.athenscsd.org/userfiles/37/Classes/972/ngugi%20wa%20thiongo%20and%20chinua%20achebe%20on%20the%20politics%20of%20language%20and%20literature%20in%20africa.pdf?id=2256

R0wantrees · 18/09/2018 12:13

Iused2BanOptimist
I read it yesterday!
It is fascinating isn't it and chilling?

Ginazon · 18/09/2018 12:25

I don't think you need billionaires and conspiracy theories to explain the wildfire spread of trans ideology. It is a regressive movement that uses conservative ideas of gender roles to give straight, white, pornsick middle aged men the chance to lord it over others as stunning and brave and oh so oppressed, releases the suppressed misogyny of the leftist dudebros, and offers the illusion of escape to girls and young women horrified by society's expectation of them.

stillathing · 18/09/2018 12:29

great post OP which mirrors a lot of my own rambling thoughts!

i think one reason i am so pissed off about the language is that, as you say, language may change but biology won’t change. So this means, by allowing these ridiculous training / indoctrination sessions in schools, we are bringing up a generation of young people for whom the distinction between the sexes are blurred. Penises and clitorises are almost the same; exclusively same sex attraction does not exist; some women have penises etc etc.

Even IF this was being done with the best of intentions (as mentioned in a previous thread, it has echoes of my parents' generation saying "I don't see colour") out there in the world women are still raped by men, women still get pregnant, women still bear the brunt of emotional and caring labour to the cost of their careers and dreams and men still commit the vast majority of sexual and violent crime and rise through their careers unencumbered by the burden of childbearing. Our young people still have to live these lives and in fact will probably live it even worse as they will be unable to express the problem without the language and will be unable to collect the data needed for change without the definitions.

So when people talk about "what if they win" this is the result. Its not really winning is it, because human beings can't change sex. But they certainly can create huge amounts of confusion and suffering. But biology does not give a shit.

R0wantrees · 18/09/2018 12:31

So this means, by allowing these ridiculous training / indoctrination sessions in schools, we are bringing up a generation of young people for whom the distinction between the sexes are blurred. Penises and clitorises are almost the same; exclusively same sex attraction does not exist; some women have penises etc etc

Relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357713-BISH-proudly-supported-by

stillathing · 18/09/2018 12:35

thanks rowan

what do you think the non binary significance is? i am non binary and quite prepared to announce myself thus if it helps broaden the bandwidth of anything....!!

arranfan · 18/09/2018 12:39

human beings can't change sex. But they certainly can create huge amounts of confusion and suffering. But biology does not give a shit.

For social psychologists and people studying social control, the important thing is that people have to use the language and even say something that they believe to be untrue because of the power dynamics. And that changes people.

Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 12:47

Ginazon I agree except a lot of money from a few individuals has been invested in all this. I have to say it would be way down my personal list of philanthropic ventures if I was in the position to flash my wealth and power. I don't know much about George Soros but he has always seemed like an anarchist at heart to me, which is why I see him enjoying unleashing social chaos. A giant field experiment in social control as mentioned by Arranfan seems quite likely to me, but probably not just done for fun.

OP posts:
Iused2BanOptimist · 18/09/2018 12:57

stillathing absolutely. Biology doesn't give one shiny shit! So sometimes I just settle down for a laugh and draw up a list of candidates for the Darwin Award.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 18/09/2018 13:17

what do you think the non binary significance is? i am non binary and quite prepared to announce myself thus if it helps broaden the bandwidth of anything....!!

If the current focus is on whether some people can change binary gender presentation but with sex-based implications (legally/socially etc), then 'non-binary' removes sex-based relevence altogether.

Some who identify as non-binary may say they are neither man/ male or woman/female, some may say they are both.

There's a good article by Rebecca Reilly Cooper:
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

BiologyIsReal · 18/09/2018 13:24

Interesting also that New York Times article of 1979 did not refer to the word buzz word "gender.....

hackmum · 18/09/2018 14:47

That Thomas Szasz article is extraordinary. It says all the things we're saying now, nearly 40 years later. It makes several references to a book by Janice Raymond - is it actually a review of the book?

arranfan · 18/09/2018 14:57

Interesting to see the critical view of Transsexual Empire on Wikipedia:

Writing in The Transgender Studies Reader (2006), Carol Riddell argues that The Transsexual Empire "did not invent anti-transsexual prejudice, but it did more to justify and perpetuate it than perhaps any other book ever written.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Empire

I wonder if it's time for someone else to reinterpret it?

auntethel · 18/09/2018 20:00

I think I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist too, I've just embarrassingly started a thread on female chat with a David Icke video (never thought I'd ever do thatBlush "the war on children"

newtlover · 18/09/2018 22:48

astonishing article by Tomas Szasz
where is he now? is he still with us?

newtlover · 18/09/2018 22:56

seems he dies in 2012, but wikipedia quoted him thus-

The struggle for definition is veritably the struggle for life itself. In the typical Western two men fight desperately for the possession of a gun that has been thrown to the ground: whoever reaches the weapon first shoots and lives; his adversary is shot and dies. In ordinary life, the struggle is not for guns but for words; whoever first defines the situation is the victor; his adversary, the victim. For example, in the family, husband and wife, mother and child do not get along; who defines whom as troublesome or mentally sick?... [the one] who first seizes the word imposes reality on the other; [the one] who defines thus dominates and lives; and [the one] who is defined is subjugated and may be killed.

this was in reference to mental illness, but relevant here

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