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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Charlotte Gill in the Times

26 replies

Igneococcus · 18/09/2018 07:29

This is one hell of a confused comment on sex, gender, STEM, feminists I don't even know where to start. I'll think about it while getting ready to go to my STEM lab. If I could uninvent one thing it would be the term gender.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/science-says-men-and-women-are-different-but-feminists-wont-listen-mw8r8qvhj?shareToken=cf43a8a0e7ec9b878a0a7ff3679af573

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KatVonGulag · 18/09/2018 07:46

Conversely wasn't there a study that showed if a girls parent was supportive of their following stem subjects, they were much more likely to go down that route?

So gender stereotypes reach down the generations.

I'm also confused how feminism is now a cult with BA (hons) in art, priestess leaders. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.

franke · 18/09/2018 07:47

I saw this first thing this morning and wasn't quite sure what to make of it. She's clearly very angry with feminists.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/09/2018 07:48

A confused piece indeed. She sneers at the idea of gender as a social construct but fails to acknowledge any genetic/environmental interaction or complexity. She then conflates sex and gender all over the place.

The addition of the sneering over feminists with pitchforks is grim - that’s straight out of the MRA playbook. As is the reference to that gender role divergence study - I’ve seen that referenced by MRAs multiple times. I need to give it a good read before I pronounce on that though. Also Jordan Peterson, do we have handmaiden bingo here?

Depressing piece. Poor grasp of what the science says, aggressive and dismissive tone towards feminism. Pound to a penny she’s the type that thinks sex work is empowering.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/09/2018 07:51

She’s totally misunderstood what’s meant by the concept of gender as a social construct hasn’t she? 🤦🏻‍♀️ And completely missed the point about how radical feminism actually DOES see difference between the sexes.

I’d get my pitchfork, but it’s stuck behind the cauldron...

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/09/2018 07:52

That's a very muddly article. I'm surprised the Times published it as it is. It doesn't read as 'finished' - I'd have asked her for a rewrite.

CrackpotsArePots · 18/09/2018 07:53

The minute someone talks about pitchforks it's a bit of a 'tell'. It tells me that they care more about chucking hyperbole around than thinking. And yes, the piece confirms that.

Stillmuddlingthrough · 18/09/2018 07:53

Silly me. I will stop helping my daughter with some really difficult maths homework that her dad doesn't understand as it appears she shouldn't bother. Surely even if there is a difference the point is you treat everyone as an individual rather than assume ability/interest by sex. Terrible article.

MIdgebabe · 18/09/2018 07:55

Omg the total idiocy. Studies find that in societies where acting like a female is expecetd too has less ( fewer?) life penalties and where strong gender sterotypes are everywhere, from birth to social media then women take the easy route.

The definition of equal does not attempt to capture the effect of social media and bullying,

I would comment but not able

Assuming the times reporter is reading this, we have discussed this endlessly. I even give itbitsbown shorthand name " the Swedish fallacy"

And tbh, I don't actually care whee the fundamental differences between women and men start and end, I just want no woman to be penalised because they are a woman a woman.

Suddenly we will hear calls thatbequal pay is not needed, that women should not expect to be in government or management, all on the basis of poor causal analysis.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 18/09/2018 07:58

But where was the feminist discussion? Did you hear it? I know I didn’t

I will put money on it that there was feminist discussion about it

Was someone supposed to ring her and tell her specifically?

Right who was that? Fess up, you had one job!

GulagMilkMonitor · 18/09/2018 07:58

She’s totally misunderstood what’s meant by the concept of gender as a social construct hasn’t she?

This, this, this.

As my lecturer (on my science degree Wink) used to say (and Polonius before him) “very like a whale”.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 18/09/2018 07:59

yet feminists never pay attention

Feminists arent the ones not paying attention

Apparently you missed a call telling you feminists were discussing it...

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/09/2018 07:59

I’ve lived in Sweden and am well aware of the differences there wrt gender stereotypes (far less toxic) and parental leave (fabulous)

Anyone got a link to the study?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 18/09/2018 08:00

or a piece of Lego at her first Christmas

That was the best example?

Lego is for girls and boys (you can even get it in pink)

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 18/09/2018 08:01

I thought the feminists would come for me with their pitchforks. One day I realised something even worse! They weren’t listening at all

Not to you no....you havent said anything interesting yet

littlbrowndog · 18/09/2018 08:05

Very muddled piece hardly understandable

PITCHFORKS !!
jeeps

Feminists !!
With pitchforks

MissBartlettsconscience · 18/09/2018 08:06

I thought it was very telling that she hadn't added any links. And that's she's a freelance presumably desperate for her next job and thinking that's what the times will want.

It might be, but doesn't quite gel with the thought and care of the excellent Alice Robinson (?) article last week about how she's actually a man! Or the times' general approach to GC issues apart from anything else.

IAmLurkacus · 18/09/2018 08:11

What was that word salad I just read? I think she should publish an article once she’s come to a conclusion of what she actually thinks, rather than subject the rest of us to her every navel gazing thought along the way.

scepticalwoman · 18/09/2018 08:13

Is she having a go at 3rd wave feminist intersectionality centring men and feelz but is too scared to say it?

MIdgebabe · 18/09/2018 08:13

Need to dash to work,

To find the papers usually referenced
I tried searching Sweden, fallacy, my user name , feminist chat last 6 months but did something wrong and got no results

The thing is , with gender discrimination and sterotypes appearing in so many aspects, dialling down all factors , but dialling some down more than others can lead to unexpected behaviours.

Which reminds me, You will also find the same papers referenced in another thread, also this year, where berksons or Simpson's paradox is mentioned along with sweeden or Swedish

AngryAttackKittens · 18/09/2018 08:14

Did The Times give their copy editors the day off?

IHATEPeppaPig · 18/09/2018 08:26

Oh dear, that piece was just a weird ramble about how much she doesn't like feminists- it made no sense to me.

Feminists do acknowledge the differences between the sexes so she clearly hasn't been listening or reading any feminist theory.

thewitchofwentworth · 18/09/2018 08:29

I think recall the study she is talking about. This article does a better job at looking at it and explaining and also links to the study;

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

JackyHolyoake · 18/09/2018 08:33

Perhaps Ms Gill should give this a listen and go and interview Prof Gina Rippon? {Royal Institution lecture.]

BettyDuMonde · 18/09/2018 09:29

Lego isn’t suitable for children under 4.

It’s not, however, subject to sex restrictions.

Confused
Igneococcus · 18/09/2018 09:40

They must be keeping a very close eyes on the comments. There are only 9 comments up yet.

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