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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is trans the new homosexual?

50 replies

PerverseConverse · 16/09/2018 10:25

Someone has just said on Facebook that psychiatrists treated homosexuality many years ago as something that was a response to societal pressures and that transgenderism is the new version of this with the implication that in years to come it will be dismissed as such and will be accepted as much as homosexuality is now accepted (I'm not suggesting it is completely accepted as there is still a lot of hate out there but accepted in a loose sense. Sorry not explaining very well). I think this isn't the case at all. Is this a widely held belief that in time all the fuss will die down, surgery will be the norm and all will be accepted and rosy?

OP posts:
EmpressOfSpartacus · 16/09/2018 10:29

There's nothing rosy about the phalloplasty pictures going round. Nothing rosy about what breast binding does to women either.

CrackpotsArePots · 16/09/2018 10:31

Nothing rosy about infertility

PerverseConverse · 16/09/2018 10:32

Ah, she's confused trans with sexuality. This is some of the problem: fear of repeating past mistakes regarding sexuality. But the two are separate.

OP posts:
CrackpotsArePots · 16/09/2018 10:35

Maybe send her this link.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366826-Why-trans-rights-are-not-the-same-as-gay-rights

EmpressOfSpartacus · 16/09/2018 10:37

Separate and incompatible. Being lesbian or gay is about being attracted to the same sex, not to genders.

LizzieSiddal · 16/09/2018 10:38

Being homosexual does not involve mutilationg yourself and talking hormones all your life.

It’s not the same thing at all.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/09/2018 10:48

I feel I'm just as much at risk of hate crime as a lesbian as I was in the nineties. I don't think the general public is any more ok with people being gay than they were then. The only thing that has changed is you can get married, which to me isn't a huge advantage.

Look: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3191731/gay-pride-lgbt-march-inverness-petition/

As well as the 'traditional' sources of hate, there's also the transactivist movement.
This movement seems to serve to make lesbian lives harder in several ways.

1)erasing our history eg 'Storme De Larverie - saying either that she was trans (lots of lesbians are drag kings and back then, lots wore masculine clothes - we still do now - it doesn't mean you have a trans gender identity - it was a way of rebelling against the idea of a gender identity)
www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/remembering-storm%C3%A9-the-woman-who-incited-the-stonewall_us_5933c061e4b062a6ac0ad09e?guccounter=1

  1. Acting as though we should consider male sexual partners as they are 'lesbians' and that if we don't, we're bigoted

  2. Acting as though our politics and women-only spaces make us bigoted

  3. Because we've been labelled bigots, it's ok to physically attack us eg 'punch a terf' etc

  4. co-opting all lesbian organisations and turning them into LGBT ones that generally exclude women because they centre males so much.
    This affects funding, things like Pride marches etc.

I don't understand how you can affirm gay identities at the same time as saying that physical sex is irrelevant. I'm not attracted to femininity at all. I'm attracted to lesbian women.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/09/2018 10:49

Most trans identified people don't have surgery. It's generally about being seen as 'a woman' without losing the ability to experience male sexual pleasure, for transwomen.

VickyEadie · 16/09/2018 10:50

As one of the gays, I can assure you the two things are not remotely comparable. My rights to be with the person I choose without harassment do not impinge on a single other person's rights, safety or privacy.

Moreover, my relationship with another woman doesn't destroy women's sports.

It's clever how Stonewall et al have leeched on to gay rights (and most people's paranoia about being seen as a 'bigot'), though - I'll give you that.

CrackpotsArePots · 16/09/2018 10:50

It's profoundly homophobic to re-brand a person with a penis as a lesbian.

VickyEadie · 16/09/2018 10:52

It's profoundly homophobic to re-brand a person with a penis as a lesbian.

Do you know what? It also makes me boak to think of it.

WeShouldOpenABar · 16/09/2018 10:54

I don't think they're the same, the new trans trend has more to do with singling yourself out as other and special with certain people and a desperate desire to put a name on why they don't feel like they belong in others.

CrackpotsArePots · 16/09/2018 10:54

Vicky

Yeah, I hear you. I'm heterosexual and they aren't all that. Especially attached to someone called Cerise (or something) in their spare time

EmpressOfSpartacus · 16/09/2018 10:59

I feel I'm just as much at risk of hate crime as a lesbian as I was in the nineties.

When I came out in London in the nineties, it was into a community of lesbians who could introduce me to the best places to go, both the women-only bars & groups and mixed places, & tell me about our history. I made friends there that I'm still close to today. And there was an understanding that anyone who pushed you to do dick was a dick.

I am SO FUCKING GRATEFUL I came out then, not now.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/09/2018 11:04

'I am SO FUCKING GRATEFUL I came out then, not now.'
Same

Although I do remember pressure to 'consider' men and to 'consider' if I were bisexual. Which i see as similar to today's nonsense. It was led by glossy magazines and well-to-do types back then, as well.

VickyEadie · 16/09/2018 11:07

"Consider" men? What the FUCK has what we "consider" to do with anyone else?

They can fuck the fuck off.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/09/2018 11:12

Well, yeah, quite.

There was a good book at the time - www.amazon.co.uk/All-Rage-Reasserting-Radical-Feminism/dp/0807762849?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Some of the women with chapters in it are still active against the 'consider the penis' / transactivist movement.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 16/09/2018 11:20

Transgenderism is utterly incompatible with homosexuality, as it brands homosexuality as morally wrong, while being completely incoherent in logic as to why.

Homosexuality is exclusive attraction to the same biological sex.

Transgenderism insists that to focus on biology and exclude partners on that basis is morally wrong, while also saying that to feel lack of attraction and revulsion to a male sexed body is a socially constructed bias that biological women must strive to overcome. However while this is a socially constructed bias you must unlearn, feeling trans absolutely isn't and that's a fixed fact you are evil to even question. And also biologically male self declared lesbians do not need to strive to overcome their lack of attraction and revulsion to male sexed bodies because reasons. They just want biologically female bodies to fuck please, despite there being no such thing as a biological woman (somehow they have NO problem in differentiating them from biological males though), and the biological women need to just stop with this silly belief they have any say in it, and this is also ok because reasons.

Incoherent, misogynist, sexist, homophobic bollocks that needs a very firm No.

nopeni · 16/09/2018 11:25

I actually think in one way it is: it doesn't get you noticed or special to be anorexic / gay / bisexual anymore as a teen, like it did just a few decades ago. You have to go one step further and be "queer" or trans or questioning.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 16/09/2018 11:27

I'm not on the scene at all nowadays. I meet up with the lesbian friends I've known for years and that's it.

VickyEadie · 16/09/2018 11:28

I actually think in one way it is: it doesn't get you noticed or special to be anorexic / gay / bisexual anymore as a teen, like it did just a few decades ago.

I don't know about the young 'uns, but as a teenager struggling with her sexuality in the 70s, I lived in holy terror of being called a 'lez' at my very, very working class comprehensive. Nowt "special" about that sort of bullying, I can assure you.

OnlyObjectivity · 16/09/2018 11:51

I believe that trans activists have spent considerable time carefully studying other social struggles (not just homosexuality) and - at the highest level - made efforts to seed the language of consultation and legislation in numerous ways such that readers questions their own judgement and err on the side of aquiescence.

nopeni · 16/09/2018 11:55

Sorry Vicky, you're right and I didn't express that well at all. I think if you're an actual anorexic or gay person it's never a walk in the park. I'm sorry you went through that.

But there were attention-seeking phases at my school where waves of girls would say they were [whatever] for a while and then eventually dropped it.

They did get special attention, and they loved arguing about it all and claiming victimhood for a while before the next phase started (while maybe the bullying was saved insidiously for the real people?) A quick look on Reddit shows you gets attention right now.

(There's a chance that my school was deeply strange of course, it was a bit of a posh grammar place which didn't do much to prepare us for real life...)

silentcrow · 16/09/2018 11:56

Part of the problem is that there's too much under the umbrella to get a clear picture. This is how I understand it currently.

  • Most people think of (and are sympathetic to) trans, once known as transsexual, as "gender dysphoria", a strong difficulty with the sexed body, akin to the rare cases of Body Integrity Identity Disorder where people can't cope with a limb or have a strong desire to be disabled. GD has all the societal issues of gender and sexuality on top to consider, as well as any co-morbid mental illness, which may preceed or arise because of the GD. From what I can tell this is a small minority who benefit from psychological intervention; a recent study suggested sex reassignment surgery was not always the answer. Not all of these people go through with SRS; some have insight that they are their natal sex and do not presume to redefine the sex they wish to become. Others want in to women's spaces to validate themselves. Sometimes very young children are thought of as in this category; personally I hold a high degree of scepticism on this point.

Trans gender - in the case of young people, particularly girls - is more akin to self-harm and anorexia in that: 1. there's usually a social contagion element, from clusters of friends or the internet 2. there's often co-morbidity of mental health issues 3. There's often an element of sexual abuse or neglect 4. There is usually a desire to "identify out" of the situation (of being a girl under patriarchy, or a changing body, or even to please an adult) by being different, changing the material reality of one's body. Note I'm saying "often" or "usually", not "always". It's complex. There's also vulnerability issues - a significant number of girls particularly have extra factors such as ADD or autism to consider. Another part of the puzzle is sexuality - a hugely significant number of girls detransition and come out as lesbian, so trans has been a way of denying/delaying/hiding sexuality in a threatening/unaccepting atmosphere. Sadly many of these kids get put straight onto the medical pathway with no MH/SEN support and the potential for severe damage is very high. This is one of the big issues for many women here.

Then you've got your AGP (autogynophiliac) types - usually older men that benefit from all their male privilege growing up, then put on the caricatured, stereotyped costume of woman because they get off on the idea of themselves as female, submissive, etc. Often heavily into porn and other paraphilias. The trans widows thread is the best place to look for info on this. These men are often the loudest campaigners, banging on about surgery for children whilst resisting it themselves. They're many of the ones demanding access to women's spaces as a power trip. Peel back the dresses and make-up and you find men's rights activists, pornsick fetishists and misogyny running through like a stick of rock. These are the men we used to think of as cross-dressers and transvestites - some still harmless, but the loudest have soaked up all sorts of ideas, again via social contagion.

And then you have the ones hanging on to the coattails of the movement - the paraphiliacs (adult babies, furries), the paedophiles, the rapists - who will happily don heels and fake tits if it gets them closer to to their targets. You have kids (and grown-ass adults who should know better) trying to be non-binary or queer who've just drunk the pomo kool-aid and are trying to be special or play the oppression Olympics out of narcissism (they make me want to sing Common People very loudly).

All of these groups have crossovers. There's no firm line to demarcate where a young boy with GD becomes a man with AGP. We don't know the effects of modern porn (though we can speculate accurately). We don't know if the 13yo girl with the breast binder would have been cutting ten years ago, or starving herself twenty years ago (but it looks likely).

We do know that adult trans brains resemble their natal sex more than their required sex. We know that there are distinct brain differences in the region of trans brains that deals with body perception - but we have no idea if that's a cause, or an effect. www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8 - it probably needs it's own thread, I'd like to make sure I'm interpreting it properly as my knowledge of scanning technology is lacking.

Tl;dr: sorry for the epistle, trans is not the same as sexuality.

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