The countries that already have Self ID....

[BertrandRussell]

Has anyone done any sort of study of how it's gone for them?

Is this too dull for human consumption-or does nobody know?

I'd like to know as well. I imagine there are difficulti in identifying problems as any issues wont BR recorded as transgender incidents.

FFS auto correct!

It would indeed be a very interesting study, especially in countries with self id that are deeply homophobic, like Colombia and Argentina.

One of the features of the Irish system is that males still have to go to male prisons?

Which is interesting...

Well it's not a simple question. You would need proper science/analysis

. Canada has had self id for a couple of years. It's also seeing a "notable" rise in sexual crimes. 13% up from 2016. The data from 2016 showed a possible rise or stable change depending on the method of data analysis used.

. Correlation or causation? Better reporting?

Note to anyone watching. I am not saying that a single transperson was behind any attack in Canada. Nor am I suggesting that self Id laws were abused by anyone.

I am suggesting that there may be evidence that Canada's society may be getting less safe for women and children.

One explanation for this is that it's just a blimp on the longer term trends,. ANother is that the thinking ( gendered thinking) that leads to promotion of self id is Misogynistic. Another explanation is more reporting. Another explanation is better police procedures.

Many women in this group feel that self id is an expression of growing hatred against women. Whilst we can't prove this, the data supports this theory better than any theory that says self id does not increase sexual violence.

www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2018001/article/54974-eng.htm

What would the study measure?

But if you cannot specify that someone was born a male or female then surely crime figures are useless? If a man commits a crime and later becomes recognised as a woman and commits a further crime, how is this recorded? Do they update the past crime or have it as a different person (so how can DRB checks be up to date)? Does rape then become a crime that women can commit?

Under what crime would a trans person who has experienced prejudice be listed if you cant say that they were discriminated against because they are trans?

What is measurable

Canada
torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender/wcm/fc2c70f0-b1a1-41e2-85db-bec9d0012ce5

Vancouver Dyke March bans reference to XX, uteruses and lesbian symbolism such as the interlocking venus symbol: lesbianalliance.org.uk/lesbians-are-being-excluded-from-the-vancouver-dyke-march-in-the-name-of-inclusivity/

globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/

Not sure if this quite counts, but the narrative around respecting identity rather than assessing risk certainly applies: www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-island-university-fetish-student-professor-fired-1.4400306

Alaska
mustreadalaska.com/transgender-files-complaint-shelter-abused-women/

Mexico
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/mexico-elections-fake-transgender-candidates-disqualified

Argentina
www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Argentine-legally-changes-gender-to-retire-early/1068-4352176-6iecp2z/index.html

What is not measurable
The woman who stays with an abusive husband because when she picked up the courage to phone a refuge, a male voice answered.
The homeless woman who inexplicably leaves the shelter at 1am - but, you know, they're unpredictable like that, the homeless.
The woman in prison who had an abusive past, and was retraumatised by being detained alongside someone who looks male to her.
The lesbians who just quietly stopped going to lesbian groups.
The children silently learning about the solubility of boundaries from their mothers.
The effect on society generally of enshrining in law the concept that women have an innate sense of womanhood which explains their inferior social status.

I'd be really interested to see academics studying this, crime is one area but I'd also be interested to see how much it's affected womens' decisions to stay out of publuc spaces, because I bet it's had an impact there.

Laura - yes - thank you. That is exactly what I meant by my one-liner.

The impact of Self ID is extremely difficult to assess unless people who have access to the relevant information are actively studying it, and I fear they won't be. The whole point is to ignore sex and sex differences.

You can't analyse differences in crime figures unless you have some way of tracking offenders by sex. There's also phenomena that aren't readily quantifiable, like how many women have simply stopped using public loos because of mixed sex facilities. That sort of stat is likely to vary locally, in that towns with only a few men regularly abusing the system will soon see the number of women prepared to use their local leisure centre plummet

The Irish policy of putting people in prison on the basis of their sex is a good one, because it makes crime stats transparent and stops the insanity that put Karen Whites in a woman's prison.

You couldn't assess it without women being honest, and we don't dare here where it isn't enshrined in law (yet). So how could they there?

As a woman you're made to feel pathetic and heaped scorn upon for any level of request for equality. Women's sports are roundly mocked. Women's scholarships for stem subjects are subject to a barrage of "but why not for men too?". A swimming forum I'm on just showed it's true colours by a long post moaning about women's swimming hours, which apparently are abhorrently sexist against men.

Men fucking HATE women and how uppity we've got.

How do you as a woman express that without being given the look? Especially when you're supposed to be kind and caring and not judge All Men for the actions of the 99% of them.

Were men always like this?
I don't remember them complaining this much about anything except women's lib, and what women have, and what it means they can't do as a result. And the endless lies, about what women have supposedly done to harm men.
I used to like men. Now there's only a few men I actively like, and I can't be bothered to even listen to most of them any more.

I now think the majority of men have always held women in contempt deep down (and not so deep down), yes.

Reddit is an absolute eye-opener to how much men loathe and resent women if you ever need one; porn is another bigger one. History in general actual. I don't know why I assumed it could get better.

Even the apparently nice "woke" ones have never really understood the reality of womanhood and the realities and threats that we face - if they did, they wouldn't be pushing self-ID without any limits.

I think men have always been like this- but the constraints of old fashioned good manners stopped them saying it. Also, women didn't intrude into the male sphere so much, so men didn't feel challenged. NAMALT, obviously.

All I remember (about men) from the second wave was scorn, hate and contempt.

I'm kinda buffered by the lovely men in my family. We're very close. And I have some dear male friends. They're unconventional, which perhaps makes a difference.

But I ever need reminding there's the content of any daily paper and FWR links to nudge my memory. Oh, and the Relationships board. There's some heart-rending threads there which illustrate the predictable path abusive men take.

I know that a significant proportion of men are nasty bastards who we are right to fear and loathe.

And the horrible realisation that gay men were just as bad........

Yes, I think that's been one of the most awful things about this current TRA self-ID / prioritise male rights / get women out of sports and public life movement.

It's not just that some arsehole(s) came up with it and funded it (because of course they did), but that every other man seems to have said "yes, good idea!"

I think one of the most notable points of this ideology is the way in which it shines a spotlight on misogyny. It's a bit like when toto pulls back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. The Wizard was always a little man pushing buttons. The desire to put women in their place was always there it's just we didn't see it. Or some of us didn't see it, it's been a revelation to me.

During the years when AIDS was killing so many gay men horribly many lesbians, particularly in the US where the health system is very different, stepped up: nursing men at home, helping in other ways. All out of solidarity.

Now, when lesbians are under siege in so many places, the gay community is nowhere to be seen. I've read a number of rants by lesbians saying essentially that when some new crisis hits the gay community they're on their own this time.