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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brainstorm your ideal outcome

128 replies

BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 10:03

This is what I think a fair society would look like.

  1. Repeal the GRA. Noone changes sex, and society shouldn't force people to pretend they can.
  1. Create a SEX Recognition Act in its place. Sex is a protected characteristic, we can define and describe it, and we have an obligation to do this in law. We must give it watertight legal protection. Make it unassailable. Outline the same sex rights that are protected.
  1. Legally separate terminology -ALL terminology that relates to sex Vs gender.
All legal institutions already recognise the fundamental difference between the two, but currently they rely on deliberate ambiguity and conflation of terms to make two opposing concepts opaque and interchangeable to suit an agenda. This ends. There are legal terms which relate to sex (male/female/man/woman) , and terms which relate to gender (masculine/feminine) and these concepts are not synonymous in law. No crossover of terms. Sex has a legal lexicon, and gender does too. They are not interchangeable. .
  1. New legal protections for 'gender expression' such that no discrimination is allowed on the basis of how someone presents themselves. Not protections for 'trans' which should not exist as a legal concept. Protections for male people who present themselves as whatever they perceive their gender to be -feminine, etc. And vice versa.
A person's sex status is immutable. Their gender status - and this is NOT a compulsory characteristic, JUST LIKE RELIGION, is subject to change if wished.
  1. 'Grandfathering' of the 5000 already granted a GRC. They have passed through a period of history that endorsed a legal fiction, and they benefitted from it and will continue to do so. But that door is now closed and none will follow. Those people will be the last to be legally recognised as the sex they are not.

That is my desired outcome. What would yours be?

Don't start with the compromise you think society will give you.
Start with how you think things SHOULD be. Uncompromising.

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 14:32

Once all that has been achieved, sex will no longer need to be a protected characteristic, and (except maybe in sport), natal males can be accepted in all female spaces, if they want, because in doing so, they won't be taking anything from us.

I do not consent to being naked and/or intimately vulnerable in the presence of men. I don't consent to men viewing my naked body or touching my clothed/unclothed body without my consent.

How would you go about removing my consent? Would you force male presence upon me for smear tests, and changing rooms, and security pat downs, and upon every woman who feels this way, or would you simply exclude me from society?

I'm interested.

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 14:36

Also scienceroar, I think you mean sex, not gender in your opening sentence.

And whilst we reach your utopia where male violence and paedophilia and rape no longer exist, can we talk about the laws we need to create NOW that will help us get to that utopia?

(Even setting aside the fact that I don't fear harm from my dad but won't change in front of him like I would my mum, because privacy, dignity, consent and boundaries matter too, not just fear of harm)

OP posts:
LauraMipsum · 11/09/2018 14:45

The EA is part of my job. The bar for exclusion is high. You must have a good reason why a trans person cannot do a particular task or activity. The EA does not allow blanket exclusion.

I assume Cath does some sort of HR or employment related work, because it is correct that employment law would prevent you from stopping a trans person doing a particular task. Eg you can't refuse to let a trans person answer the phone just because you're squeamish over your customers' reaction to hearing "Hello my name's Arabella how can I help you" in a bass voice.

That does not mean that Arabella here is legally a female if she doesn't yet have a GRC. She remains a male with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. For most purposes (answering the phone is not a sex specific task!) Arabella should be treated "as a woman" with her preferred pronouns respected etc. If the company arranges a women's lunch that is purely social in nature, there would be no legitimate aim served in excluding her from it.

However, if the team goes on a weekend away involving overnight communal accommodation, Arabella can be excluded from the women's accommodation, because she is still legally male, and it is legal to exclude someone with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in these circumstances.

There are two current legal opinions on what happens if she acquires a GRC thereby becoming legally female.

Opinion 1 (which I share): Arabella is legally female. Those with the protected characteristic of g.r. can be excluded. But those with the protected characteristic of female sex cannot, otherwise it makes a mockery of the exemptions. Therefore Arabella must be entitled to join the women in the communal accommodation.

Opinion 2 (which I do not share): Arabella is legally female. But because she has a history of g.r. she can still be excluded even if she is female.

[Option 2 is what some transsexuals are afraid of: that the EA will be interpreted in this way, thereby throwing them straight under a bus, but never mind them eh, they're only 1% of the transgender movement these days (that was sarcasm Cath, which is different to irony). I also think that this cannot be what Parliament intended, partly because the GRA creates a legal sex "for all purposes" and partly because if we conclude that female people with a protected characteristic of g.r. can be excluded, we mean that women who look a bit butch can be excluded too, as they have the p.c. of perceived g.r.]

And this is where the concerns over reform to the GRA arise, because at the moment there are relatively few Arabellas, they've always been in and around women's space, and that is partly because the GRC process is one which has a degree of integrity. If we replace that with a simple stat dec, and Opinion 1 is correct, then it opens up the protected category of female to a very large number of ill-intentioned, or part-timing, males. If Opinion 2 is correct then sex exemptions are retained but trans women who do have a GRC are excluded.

The govt needs to be clear over which they are inviting us to do.

I have a background in this area. (I don't expect Cath to believe that, but others might find it useful.)

UpstartCrow · 11/09/2018 14:50

Trans activists need to sort out male violence, and then demand all barriers are removed.

CSA is a known risk for adult suicide. So MRA's could start by tackling CSA, if they are concerned about the high rates of successful suicide amongst men.

theOtherPamAyres · 11/09/2018 14:52

Sex pay gap not Gender pay gap
Male violence not Gender-based violence
Mixed Sex not Gender Neutral
Sex Balance not Gender Balance
Sex Justice not Gender Equality

A shout out to Michael Conroy who does a fantastic job on twitter (and in the real world, I'm sure) to raise the consciousness of the male sex
twitter.com/MichaelConroy68

#RepealtheGender(sic)Act

RantyCath · 11/09/2018 15:05

With respect Laura, you are wrong.

RantyCath · 11/09/2018 15:24

@BarrackerBarmer . By time waster, do you mean me? Perhaps you should waste less time on your ignorant predjudices and learn something about what the law actually says.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/09/2018 15:25

Out of interest, Cath, are you going to explain why you think Laura is wrong, or is she supposed to just accept your assertion that she is on faith?

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 15:57

Laura that’s my understanding of the current situation too (although I wouldn’t have been able to set it out as eloquently).

If it’s option 1 self ID is really worrying for anyone who values women’s spaces.

If it’s option 2 then self ID is really worrying for the transsexuals who we’ve always shared with under our unspoken ‘gentlewomen’s agreement’, but far less potent for everyone else.

Neither is good for women and transsexuals. Great for Karen White types though :/

SirVixofVixHall · 11/09/2018 16:11

While I accept that in some circumstances it might be kind to allow someone the pretence of being female, I think that pretence has got us to where we are now. Sex offenders and child abusers in with women.
This act is outdated, it was put in place pre same sex marriage, and in a very different climate- we didn’t at that point have a situation where transvestites where included in this.

SistersOfMercy · 11/09/2018 16:13

@BarrackerBarmer people coming into the country do not have sex on their birth certificate, as they wouldn't have it with them. How do you intend to enforce this glorious new regime for travel? Trans people may even have their new birth cert if from countries that allow it to be changed, so immigration is a real issue for you.

How exactly do you enforce access to "women's spaces" anyway - have a look at your birth cert, it says "Not an identity document". Not to mention hardly anyone carries them around. We need a new XX ID card, based on what? Birth cert? Massive administrative costs, lots of people don't have theirs - such as the traveller community - how do you determine "birth sex" then? We'd have 10s of thousands of Semenya like situations where the government decides if you are a "man" or a "woman", not the person themselves. Completely illiberal.

Intersex orgs are pro self-id because intersex people often want to change what is on their birth cert as it is wrong. See the Scottish consultation, the intersex orgs included all want self-id. How do they do that in your new "gender critical" utopia?

OlennasWimple · 11/09/2018 16:15

What a lot of new names on FWR this morning!

JellySlice · 11/09/2018 16:29

situations where the government decides if you are a "man" or a "woman", not the person themselves. Completely illiberal.

Which is why the definition of woman as adult female human needs to be enshrined in law.

What would be liberal would be to enshrine in law the right of people to present as they wish.

Why shouldn't Mary, a male, hold a passport which says "Male, presenting as female"? Let Mary live their life conforming to the stereotypes with which they feel comfortable, but still accessing the single-sex spaces appropriate to their sex.

ScienceRoar · 11/09/2018 16:30

@barrackerbarmer Yes I mean sex equality.

I think if we had nothing to fear from men, we wouldn't mind them seeing us naked. Women don't cover themselves in all cultures. Most of us might object, but that's because we are products of the society in which we've been raised.

I was speaking very much in the hypothetical sense, but so were you.

JellySlice · 11/09/2018 16:33

I would also like it acknowledged that a person of one sex cannot oblige anyone to use the pronouns of the other sex about them. So Mary, who is male, may object to you referring to Mary as 'he', but cannot oblige you to lie and use 'she'. Mary and you would be able to compromise on the ungrammatical, but gender-neutral, 'they'.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 16:34

Hilarious the knots you have to tie yourself in whilst pretending you can't see sex.

Human sex is not tricky to ascertain.

Before wondering about how other countries handle their own legal lies, we can get our own house in order.

No more documented lies in the UK is where we should start.

Incidentally Laura, there is still the clause allowing the complete exclusion of GRC holders from same sex facilities. So the law will pretend they are female, but only up to a point.

The law is flawed and places a high legal burden of proof upon the organisation excluding the male with a GRC, especially since you cannot ask to see the GRC.

However, in a test case such as the one with Vancouver rape crisis centre, I'd be interested to see how UK law handles this.
It remains legal though, for Arabella to be excluded from the female accomodation if not doing so would result in women not being able to access that opportunity. It would be a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

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SistersOfMercy · 11/09/2018 16:47

Great, so that is no answers at all to the massive holes in your ridiculous proposal. One so contrary to a free and fair society that not even UKIP or the DUP have come out with suggestions so extreme.

"The law is flawed and places a high legal burden of proof upon the organisation excluding " ... Interesting you care about he burden on the organisations providing services. You should read the Scottish GRA consultation, I did after seeing the furor on here about GRA reform. All the organisations that provide services to women were fully in support of self-id, many already provide their services on the basis of self-id. I don't see any cataclysmic problems in Scotland, other than those caused by Tory austerity.

jellyfrizz · 11/09/2018 16:54

BarrackerBarmer coming into the country do not have sex on their birth certificate, as they wouldn't have it with them. How do you intend to enforce this glorious new regime for travel? Trans people may even have their new birth cert if from countries that allow it to be changed, so immigration is a real issue for you.

Huh?? Neither Barracker nor anyone else in this thread is advocating that trans people be banished from the country.

Materialist · 11/09/2018 16:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 16:56

The only reason to have sex listed on your passport is because someone of the same sex needs to perform a cavity search.

Otherwise we could do away with it entirely.

jellyfrizz · 11/09/2018 16:57

How exactly do you enforce access to "women's spaces" anyway

Much the way it always has been.

Materialist · 11/09/2018 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jellyfrizz · 11/09/2018 17:00

Intersex orgs are pro self-id ....for intersex people I'd imagine rather than opportunistic sex offenders.

iamawoman · 11/09/2018 17:00

You all show how you are not women by completing disregarding the facts of male sexual violence and abuse and that self id is a loophole which will increase the risk of harm to women, teen girls and young children . Recent statistics show that more sexual assaults and voyeurism take place in Unisex facilities, half of so called transgender prisoners are sex offenders....How many additional women need to experience abuse at the hands of a male bodied person due to self id before you actually listen to women

Bronners78 · 11/09/2018 17:03

There is an interesting bit of case law which is worth reading. A trans woman applied to join the police force but was refused. The reason being that she was legally male and had the appearance of female. The issue being there was a law that stated that as a legal male she couldn’t search women and her appearance meant it was inappropriate to ask her to search men. Effectively she was told she couldn’t do the job.

This went to the Housr of Lords who ruled that she was discriminated against and should, in that case, have been treated as female. All this predates GRA by the way, so was in a time of self ID.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200304/ldjudgmt/jd040506/chief-1.htm

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