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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the guardian starting to change its position?

25 replies

Wilhemenawonka · 10/09/2018 07:10

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white

Still no comments allowed but it's much stronger on the gc message than I've seen for ages. Even a comment about how penises shouldn't be infemale prisons.

OP posts:
noeffingidea · 10/09/2018 13:04

They'll change their position as soon as it suits them. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the general public is not on board with this brand of transactivism, and businesses can't afford to ignore that for too long.

hackmum · 10/09/2018 13:11

I don't think they are changing. I think they would have looked foolish if they hadn't carried the story about Karen White. I fully expect them to have an opinion piece by Shon Faye or a handmaiden about why this isn't representative and we mustn't draw conclusions.

They also had this piece of woke nonsense in there today:

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/sep/10/every-step-i-take-is-a-defiance-rain-dove-on-modelling-asia-argento-and-gender-capitalism

"I say her partner, but this is an arbitrary decision on my part because Rain Dove (full name Rain Dove Dubilewski) disavows pronouns and asks her interlocutor to choose their own."

PineappleSunrise · 10/09/2018 13:56

To be honest, in that story Rain Dove is sounding quite sensible. Take her position on pronouns, allowing people to choose the one they think fits and not taking offense about it:

"Use she, he, it, one, they. You could call me mow mow and I honestly don’t care,” she says. “A pronoun is just a sound. All I’m listening for in that sound is positivity.”

Given that Rain Dove seems to be a genuinely androgynous looking female, this seems like a sensible and pragmatic way of dealing with the fact that some people will think "he" and other "she" when they see her. It also covers the group of people who will want to call her they/zir/whatever.

She also doesn't seem to be worry about her former name being mentioned in the article (refreshing), and she defended Rose McGowan from a TRA pile-on.

I liked this quote from her, too:

"Far from disavowing gender – Rain Dove rejects the phrases “gender-neutral” and “gender-non-binary” – one must choose and re-choose every day. Doesn’t she ever want a break from thinking about it? “Some people have lost their families, their homes, their careers and even their lives over their right to be able to identify with a particular gender,” she says. “So I very much respect people’s identities with their own personal labels. But I think the world would be a lot better off if we saw people as intentions and vessels.”

Sounds pretty GC, actually.

Wanderabout · 10/09/2018 14:00

The Guardian has some sensible grown ups and plenty who don't toe the OJ line.

Stories exploring the wider issues have been spiked from what I hear.

But there is pressure to give balanced coverage on stories like this too.

TerfsUp · 10/09/2018 14:04

No. The Guardian has drunk the woke kook-aid. Look at the photo they have on the sidebar of Karen White - all smiley and cheerful and looking like they wouldn't be capable of hurting a fly.

Popchyk · 10/09/2018 14:10

No.

I reckon The Guardian has taken money from the trans lobby to ensure broadly positive coverage of transgender issues.

I genuinely think a lot of media players are not woke or mistaken about trans issues, they've just been paid off.

Look at Dawn Butler, Labour MP, with her £14K trip to LA to attend the GLAAD awards.

It is not ignorance. It is greed.

saville936 · 10/09/2018 15:29

A couple of my comments on a recent Gaby Hinslif piece were deleted. It seems that the Guardian’s position is that it’s OK to say that Mumsnet posters are nasty poisonous transphobes who spout nonsensical bile, but it’s ‘extremely offensive .... hate speech’ to say that men who identify as women are in fact men.

LangCleg · 10/09/2018 15:33

No.

hiveofmumsandvillainy · 10/09/2018 15:37

Alas not.

MsBeee · 10/09/2018 15:43

Guardian is just a joke. I was a subscriber, never again. I think they couldn't get away with overlooking this one.

groundcontroltomontydon · 10/09/2018 16:16

The Guardian used to be a decent newspaper; sadly now it's just a wokerati vanity project

LangCleg · 10/09/2018 16:19

In addition to my no...

Dear Grauniad

If you think I might be pathetically grateful for the smallest crumb of pro-woman reporting that had to be dragged out of you, you need to think again.

Fuck off.

Lang

Janleverton · 10/09/2018 16:30

It’s coming to something when I feel more aligned to the reporting in The Times than the Guardian - I feel like the Guardian has thrown women under the bus and become a fan club comic that just doesn’t speak to or for me.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/09/2018 16:36

Look at the photo they have on the sidebar of Karen White - all smiley and cheerful and looking like they wouldn't be capable of hurting a fly.

I think it's the same one as in the Times - probably just what the press were given. And actually, I think this picture is fine ... whether because a transwoman looks smiley and harmless is completely and utterly irrelevant.

TresDesolee · 10/09/2018 16:39

It’s a fairly open secret that there are women journos at the Guardian who are deeply pissed off about the uncritical/oppressive editorial line on gender self-ID, especially when OJ is given so much latitude to say whatever he likes. Think there was something about it in the spectator or private eye?

Anyway if Topping (who wrote this piece) has successfully fought for it to be in the paper then fist-bump for her. It will take a bit more to get me paying for the guardian again after being a paying customer for over 20 years, but it’s an improvement.

MozzieMagnet · 20/09/2018 09:56

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/sep/10/every-step-i-take-is-a-defiance-rain-dove-on-modelling-asia-argento-and-gender-capitalism

That article introduced me to Rain Dove. Aside from the Asia Argento text furore I had never heard of her. In the midst of the twitter feud I had assumed Rain was a man.
At the start of that article I had assumed they were a man.
Clicking onto their instagram I assumed they were a man who had had breast implants.
Their male gender presentation reminded me of Rupert Everett and some photos from Pasha from Strictly. Cheekbones and a face to die for.
When I saw them then with that look and bare breasts I am ashamed to say I recoiled...why? because I thought they were an autogynephile who had bought themselves a pair of breasts and making no other efforts to pass, rather the opposite, making money out of it. So I am transphobic after all (I thought I wasn't).
Then...returning to article (I had clicked to the instagram in it first) mind blown. She is the pronoun being used because she is a woman. They are her breasts. She was born a woman.
Cue
And what she said in the first few minutes absolutely resonated in how outsiders would see her/view her gender presentation/'accept' her...
Male
Gay male
Lesbian
Trans man
Trans woman
And I probably would have thought all that/did think all that - the voice giving her away in person.
Then...looking at her photos there are some photos where she presents as very glam/femme - high hair/eyeshadow/lippy, slick hair red lippy and yes, I 'saw' a woman.
A pic where she has a basketball cap on backwards and a tee 'I'm not a boy' - Looks like a girl. Whereas in more feminine dresses but without make up she looks trans. On others she looks similar to Jack Monroe.
The point to all this?
That it really really did bring back to me how gender is a social construct, that we do judge on appearance, ''clothes maketh the man'' and how being gender non-conforming affects how others see you.
It made me look at my prejudices face-on, why her being a butch lesbian would be more acceptable 'oh yeah, short hair' than being in transition.
I had originally seen 'Gender capitalism' and eyerolled a bit...but what she is doing is subversive and does redefine beauty and make us question our, well, made me question my assumptions.

PuertoVallarta · 20/09/2018 10:53

I agree with you on all of that, Mozzie.

DuggeesWoggle · 20/09/2018 11:30

I've just read the article linked to your post Mozzie and I'm inclined to agree. I think what she is doing is very interesting and I think what is important is that nowhere does she claim to actually be a man. Just that if by what she wears you take her for one then that's fine. She's obviously got a very androgynous appearance so easily passes for a man. So I guess she is doing what actually most GC feminists would want which is to present however you want, ignore the gender 'dress code', sleep with whoever you want but don't deny the body you were born in.

happydappy2 · 20/09/2018 12:18

Amazing video-I think she looks fantastic-I hope she is happy.

AngryAttackKittens · 20/09/2018 12:25

We are in a hotel lobby, waiting to go up to the model Rain Dove’s suite, when the lift doors open and out walks someone Rain Dove knows. They embrace. “How are you?” the acquaintance asks. “How am I? I am I!” Rain Dove replies. “That’s how I am.”

One paragraph in and this person already sounds insufferable.

AngryAttackKittens · 20/09/2018 12:28

OK, this is better, but the writer tying herself up in knots trying not to say the wrong thing is painful.

This feels like a large responsibility; I had hoped to use them all in equal number, but have decided to stick to one to avoid confusion. “Use she, he, it, one, they. You could call me mow mow and I honestly don’t care,” she says. “A pronoun is just a sound. All I’m listening for in that sound is positivity.”

R0wantrees · 20/09/2018 12:35

A few months later, McGowan upset the trans community when she argued with a trans heckler in a Barnes & Noble bookshop. Again, a mutual friend spoke to Rain Dove about McGowan: “‘I think this incident is really harming her. Is there anything we can do?’” At which point Rain Dove “got together a bunch of organisations, including Stonewall – and a bunch of individuals – to talk to Rose. We went to all these meetings … and people were so mean to her. They were really condescending. It was hard to watch. I was, like: ‘Dang! I know she has upset this community, but I don’t envy having to sit down in a rage like that.’”

Rain Dove looks up, apparently remembering something. She gives a small laugh, which sounds suddenly private, and then she says: “Rose told me afterwards that she was in the middle of one of those meetings and somebody was literally going: ‘Wah wah wah,’ at her. And she looked across the table and saw me. She thought: ‘Hah! I’m attracted to this person. How strange.’” Love grew and now, Rain Dove says: “I think she’s amazing.”

Interesting insight to Stonewall meetings

OldCrone · 20/09/2018 12:36

So I guess she is doing what actually most GC feminists would want which is to present however you want, ignore the gender 'dress code', sleep with whoever you want but don't deny the body you were born in.

And don't claim to be the opposite sex. It's a very 80s attitude to gender bending - so I suppose she will be called regressive by those who think that changing your gender presentation changes your sex.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 20/09/2018 12:40

The little I know made me think that she is genuinely subverting gender roles rather than nailing them down like most others .... but that she is only getting away with it because of her androgynous appearance. So not a solution for women in general.

AngryAttackKittens · 20/09/2018 12:42

I can't imagine wanting to date someone who set up the show trials in which I was to be attacked for wrongthink.

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