Rod Liddle in The Times - women not studying Physics because they aren't very good at it?

[SeaRabbit]

In today's Times Rod 'provocative' Liddle wrote:

...my contention that the minuscule number of women studying physics at degree level is not because of conditioning or sexism, but because a much smaller proportion of women are adept at the subject, despite 30 years of expensive programmes to redress the balance. Is that misogyny on my part? What if it’s true?

I have seen some statistics that in some countries there is a far higher proportion of women in those studying STEM subjects. It was in a book I got out of the library so I can't send him the details. Has anyone got anything I can link to? I don't know what the proportion of those studying physics as opposed to STEM in general is, so if the is anything on physics in particular it would be helpful.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stella-creasy-listen-sweetie-i-love-women-and-youve-got-it-all-wrong-about-misogyny-0tcffnc0c?shareToken=838251ba2a29b47a73917d04d99d93d0

[Copyright materiel removed by MNHQ]

OOps see IOP has been linked already sorry hadn't RTFT.

Why is everyone going on abotu hate crime?
He talks about that later. And tries to link it in to sort of semi-cover what he is saying. Which is that in teh early part of teh articel - upskirting should not be illegal. Of itself. In fact he thinks it's a suitabel subject to joke about. And states that sexual crimes against women are driven by love, not hate. This is dangerous stuff.

"They are finally making the act of upskirting illegal, punishable by up to two years in prison. So, that’s my retractable selfie stick going on eBay, then. It cost £34.99 and I doubt I’ll get more than a fiver for it. And hours of what I thought harmless pleasure denied — the strange and yet fascinating stuff I’ve seen up there. My only recourse is to move to Newcastle, where you don’t need to upskirt because the skirts are all pretty much up anyway, even in mid-January, the private parts blue with cold. Maybe they’ll make Newcastle illegal next."

This has no mention of hate crime at all.

In addition, from teh news, I see that upskirting is illegal now (good I say, that's terribel says Rod, it's harmless fun), no changes have been made to hate crime laws but will be reviewed.

To think he does not mean what he says is to give a nasty piece of work way too much benefit of the doubt.

IOP report is interesting, thanks. Obviously I had a very partial view...I think in my old school it was very much “teach the individual” (like one headteacher quoted) so we didn’t see girls being put off Physics.
And if we could do that, so can others.
Re nurture vs nature: like most things, it’s probably both...much more down to nurture in this case.

There may be some biological differences, but the fact we see different patterns in different countries suggests it's mainly cultural.

I'm fairly confident that my male IT colleagues won't have been assumed to be a secretary when they answer the phone. They won't have had someone tell them they can think logically because they don't have enough female hormones. They probably won't have been told they need to do something really special, "like walk on water," if they've asked what else they need to do to be ready for promotion. They won't have had vendor engineers commenting on how unusual it is to see someone of their sex in a datacentre. They won't have felt excluded by signs on the datacentre door saying, Beware! Men at work behind doors!" They don't get asked to help with STEM initiatives with local schools, or to consider how the things they say and do create the workplace culture we live with - and yet, because they are the majority, they are the ones with most influence on the culture, and have to be involved in improving it. But if you raise any instance of sexism, there's a good chance you'll get a load of "jokes" back and to be told there is no sexism and you're over-sensitive.

None of these things on their own are that big a deal, but it's constant, and it's death by 1000 cuts. It starts in schools, earlier than schools - for those women who do go into industry in STEM roles (or academia; there's a lot of misogyny in STEM subjects,) the problem we have with the pipeline is that because it's so tiring to battle all this, when something comes along to force you to review your career, like maternity or redundancy - a lot of women realise they just can't face dealing with all that shit any more - they'll be able to do well in another, more "female-friendly" career without all the shit you get in STEM roles. And so there still aren't enough female role models, and the place is still full of mediocre men getting promotions and management positions while very capable women are overlooked again and again.

Most of that is bog all to do with biological differences.

I actually agreed with this utter prick a couple of weeks ago, so it’s nice to go back to thinking he’s a total bell end again. The status quo has been restored.

This has no mention of hate crime at all

The section you quote is taken out of context. The full article in the context of whether misogyny should be a hate crime is actually sympathetic towards women. The sections you have quoted are quite clearly just hyperbole.

Christ do I have to read that twaddle again?

"Hyperbole" is noexcuse for saying nortern women are slags and upskirting women is inncoent fun.

"Stella Creasy, listen, sweetie"

He's a cunt.

Cunt cunt cunt.

Alright going to read it fucking hell the things I do for MN.

Lass -

The piece I quoted is the OPENING PARAGRPAH OF THE ARTICLE!!!

Taken out of context lol.

Erm the OP accidentally posted the whole of the relevant part of the article in her post.

So I have already read it and now that fucker has an extra click.

WTAF.

Lass - your post makes no sense. It is the opening paragraph. It says what it says. Jokes about upskirting and Northern women being slags. THEN he starts talking about hate crimes and hwo awful women are.

The piece I quoted is the OPENING PARAGRPAH OF THE ARTICLE!!!

Taken out of context lol

Try reading the whole article. The OP helpfully posted it but as you say you didn't rtft (lol)

Yes it's the opening paragraph- designed to catch the eye, make readers , especially indignant feminists (another lol) think that is outrageous.

I HAVE read the whole article!

TWICE now thanks to you and with a click for this total cunt of a man.

What he says is clear.

He is a well known woman hater (everyone whose not like him hater) and it drips through in this.

It may be "eye catching" to say that upskirting is harmless fun and northern women are slags,

But nothing in there indicates that it doesn't reflect his actual views, does it.

Plenty of men have said they don't think upskirting should be illegal.

Why do you think he's not one of them?

What is is not keen on is the hate crime legislation, let alone adding to it. Especially with misogyny as women are all professional victims. Yeah I got that. That comes later though.

Should NOT be illegal, obv.

@EBearhug, amen!!!

Also, it never fucking stops! I somehow clawed my way to the top. I'm now a senior bloody executive who gets mistaken for my own junior associate's PA as opposed to an engineering team lead who gets mistaken for the team secretary. Impressive progress!

I think it’s a mistake to take any of Rod Liddle’s nonsense seriously. Engaging in earnest debate about the content of his article is equivalent to feeding internet trolls.
He is deliberately provoking, to try and stimulate comments. This is no better than the usual click bait churned out by the likes of Hopkins and Clarkson. Don’t pay him the compliment of engaging with him!

I teach physics. He's wrong (like it needed saying).

If women were worse at Physics, then it would show hugely at GCSE's then the few who were good would continue.

In fact women perform equally well but drop off at each stage. Structural barriers such as the need to move for research and the lack of role models are the cause.

Well quite Bobdoc

Rod Liddle hates women, thinks upskirting is fine, none of them can understand science, and northern women are all sluts.

Why do we have to have this shit even posted? What's the "debate"? Whether this man is right in his view of women and how they are too frilly to understand science? On FWR? Come off it.

Plenty of men have said they don't think upskirting should be illegal

Why do you think he's not one of them?

Because the whole tone of the opening paragraph of that article is a mixture of deep sarcasm and hyperbole designed to wind readers (like you) up.

And because he says it is something 'sad, voyeuristic perverts' do.

The article is taking the stance that misogyny shuoldn't be a hate crime, and there shouldn't be hate crimes at all.

He seems to loathe all identity politics but does seem to have more sympathy with women than most other 'victim' groups as he sees them:

"because in many cases their claims of victimhood are not, like most of the others, imagined. There is still discrimination against women — less than was once the case, but still there nonetheless. In the abuse of power by foul men, in domestic violence, in rape, in the workplace. So you can appreciate the chagrin."

Whereas for most commentators and politicians women seem to be last to be considered.

Just because he's on the wind up doens't mean he doesn't beleive what he's saying.

I wouldn't eg start making racist jokes to wind someoen up.

This "oh it's just hyperbole" is weak. He says what he thinks - thats' what he's known for right? And what he thinks, like many men, is that women are perpetual victims who are too soft and want special treatment (eg upskirting why is it an issue - if you go out with a skirt on what do you expect + women should toughen up) + northern women are slags.

I see no reason to imagine that he doesn't mean any of that.

I think some poeple are given a man who is well known for havign unpleasant views way too much benefit of the doubt.

• plenty of men came out at the time and said making upskirting illegal was ridiculous,why shouldn't he be one of them.

Baby why did you cut this bit off?

"In the past 15 years women have slipped so far down the Top Trumps Table of Imagined Victimhood that they have almost disappeared from view. Outflanked by the transgender lobby, the gay lobby, the race lobby and even those who think being in possession of a quiet misgiving about Islam counts as a hate crime. No wonder they’re narked: they want their share of the lavishly iced victimhood cake"

Yes he totes has sympathy with women

He's a cunt. Cunt cunt cunt. Everyone knows that, dont' they?

Rod Liddle hates women, thinks upskirting is fine, none of them can understand science, and northern women are all sluts

RL does not say he thinks upskirting is fine at all.
He does not say no women can understand science.
He does not call northern women sluts.

The level of discussion where you distort what people say into extreme versions which is then used to illustrate their bad character just depresses me much more than any Rod Liddle article I've read- (although a few have let me swearing and spluttering, which I'm sure he'd be disappointed if they didn't!)