Mixed Sex Toilets in Schools

[Nicknamesalltaken]

I’m a Governor at a primary school.

There’s some discussion going on in a FB group I’m on about switching to mixed sex toilets. All the other governors seem to be happy with it, saying they are more efficient, will stop bullying. How do the manage at home sharing etc etc. Toilet cubicles are floor to ceiling but handbasins are separate.

I am very against mixed sex facilities if that is all there is. Most, of not all, girls in their schools will have to deal with periods. They need separate facilities to be able to do so, and not be embarrassed by it.

Not one person shares my view. I need to post on the thread with firm arguements (I am trying to avoid the self-Id issue as I want to explain this from the point of view of the rights of women and girls). I want to tell them that girls matter.

If we take away single sex spaces now, girls and women won’t feel entitled to them. They are necessary for a reason.

I thought that, by law, schools had to provide single sex facilities? Can anyone help me with this? If toilets are sealed units but washing facilities shared?

Am I going mad here? Or have I spent too long on these feminism boards? It’s not me is it?

There's also reports of girls not drinking all day to avoid the need to use the toilets presenting health risks.

Where do the children change for PE? When I was at school the girls went to the girls changing room/toilet area and boys to the boys.

Also worth noting that a few girls will have started their periods by y6. I remember being embarrassed by noises of wrappers etc when I was changing sanitary towels in an all girls environment. I imagine it will be even worse with boys present too.

As for the bullying, I'd suggest it might be worse for those girls who have started periods having to get sanitary products out of their bags in front of boys and change in toilets also used by boys. Some boys can be a bit silly about things like this at that age and therefore may be more likely to "make fun" of a girl for this?

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate the help you’ve give. Me in clarify my thought.

It’s unclear whether the terms some are using - ‘unisex’ and ‘mixed sex’ - refer to the toilet cubicles or the washing facilities. I think They mean single sex toilets with mixed washing facilities. It certainly seems to be a trend which schools are moving towards worryingly.

I seem to be a bit of a lone voice speaking about the dignity and comfort of 11 year old girls dealing with messy periods. I have suggested they consult the children.

The trans inclusivity question has come up. But sanitary bins in the boys loos has yet to be mentioned. Again, the girls are at the back of the queue.

I need to step away from it now. (It did cause me to lose some sleep last night) but thanks for your support, it’s made me feel a while lot better!

There was one incident in which some boys fished out a tampon from the sanitary bin after a girl had been in the loo, and walked out in to the playground, twirling it by the string, calling her a dirty bitch. She was then subject to people saying that she was not a virgin, as she used tampax.

That's appalling

I mean totally unisex. No single sex cubicles. Cubicles around edges, handwashing facilities in middle, all open to the corridor.

Nicknamesalltaken

Don't worry about backing out for a bit. We all need to step away at times from this. The level of delusion and the sheer awfulness when you look at the interests and histories of some of the 'leading lights' who have the government's ear is very distressing. Especially when you know what the threats are to children and women. BUT, there is some progress and as no debate is no longer working for the TRAs more and more people are becoming aware. Thank you for persisting.

So is every cubicle going to contain a Tampax dispenser as well as a sanitary disposal bin? Or will young girls have to buy tampons from a machine in a communal area in front of sniggering teenage boys? And wash bloodstained hands in a communal sink area after changing their sanpro? Or ditto washing out a mooncup in front of boys?
Why should the whole population of schoolgirls have to be embarrassed and inconvenienced, not to mention put at risk of assault, purely to kowtow to a tiny minority of aggressive trans activists? And why would any school governor in their right mind countenance this crock of shit?

Our primary school moved to mixed >> their reasons were space & bullying.

The bullying thing is because they got rid of rooms with toilets in and instead had them open off the corridor in an open space - so anyone walking past can see what is going on rather than them being shut away spaces.
I asked questions about privacy, and about the boys weeing everywhere issue.
The replies I got satisfied me and the kids are happy with them. In the end I think it ended up being girls one side and boys the other as well, even though in the same space.

Periods is a big difference though >> this is a primary ,and girls who start are allowed to use the staff toilet.

In general I think that having them more open does reduce bullying / iffy behaviour in them.
However at a secondary, there are periods to think of. Disposal, and if you get blood on your hands you have to go to basin to wash it off. I vaguely remember waiting in the cubicle until I thought the loos were empty so people wouldn't hear "rustling". Boys outside would have been worse? Girls getting to grips with using tampons >> you feel self conscious even when you're on your own, let alone with blokes outside!

In short, not sure. I think if well designed and the blokes don't piss everywhere etc then maybe... BUT what about sanitary disposal and hand washing? These need to be addressed properly before moving forward IMO.

Let's face it, female needs are currently rarely considered in toilets (they never design them to fit a sanitary bin) so all of this, I'm not confident it will work for girls.

Could they have the open plan and one side girls with sanitary bins in cubicle and one side boys?

Won;t the boys miss having urinals?

Have they asked the children?

I am really concerned that people who are part of the decision making in schools don’t see the children.

I would focus on costs of providing suitable facilities

So we pay per a sanitary bin for collection, so if every cubicle has a sanitary bin (and it really must if its for both sexes otherwise its just a single sex toilet) - it will increase your costs of collection and disposal quite a bit - not to mention the cost of bins. School budgets are really tight and its suprising how much things like bins add up too.

Then focus on blood on your hands and washing, so again each cubicle must have a hand basin in it as you can not expect a girl to wash bloody hands in full view of everyone. which again is really expensive compared to sharing a few wash bins.

I think you'd also need extra to replace those missing urinals (or is it just girls that are losing their facilities?)

So basically be really, really supportive of the most expensive option and basically bar anything cheaper

My secondary school dd tells me they have just had some mixed facilities put in - she doubts she or any of her peers will use them. Lots of primary school dc hold themselves back rather than use the toilets anyway (my dh never once used the loo at primary school apparently) which is rather unhealthy.

I started my periods at age 10. They were heavy to the point that I had to use 2 towels at a time and had to have days 1-3 of my period at home as the cramps were so bad I couldn't stand - this was with prescribed medication. It took me until I was 14 to be confident enough to change my towels at school in single sex facilities. Prior to age 14 on the days I was in school during my period I would use the same towel/towels all day as I was so embarrassed.

Had single sex facilities not been an option I would either have stayed off school for the duration of my period or just worm the same pads all day which was pretty gross.

Removing single sex facilities for young girls shouldn't be an option at all. They need access to both toilet and hand washing facilities for these reasons. If my girls face this shit and are bothered by it, it is something that I would absolutely take them out of school over and home educate. I imagine I would not be the only parent to decide this...but then I suppose the government could cut the budget for schools.

Girls are too often used by schools to help address the behaviour of boys. For example, being seated between disruptive boys to help mediate their behaviour, at the expense of the girl’s own education and social experience. It’s not girls’ responsibility to mediate boys’ behaviour. Equally, girls should not lose privacy and dignity as an easy means to improve the behaviour of boys

Amen

There should be separate toilets for boys and girls. As a teenage girl in particular, you can feel self conscious and uncomfortable around the issue of periods with boys in the same toilet. I also think that girls need a safe space amongst other girls (just like boys).

I don't believe teenage boys or girls want to share toilets. But as usual, there's only one group being listened to - and it's not children and young people. This is what we need to push - listen to young people

listen to young people

It's not just about listening as you will only hear the loud confident voices (this goes for adults too!) You need to create a way that everyone can feedback honestly without any risk of being judged by their peers.

“Periods is a big difference though >> this is a primary ,and girls who start are allowed to use the staff toilet.”

That’s unsatisfactory, surely?

Heres something as well, that's not what I really want to talk about. My periods also, crazy heavy, very hard to manage and pain ( oh my God) anyway.

Every period I had accidents: blood dripping on floor, getting on knickers or toilet seat. Bad enough in an all girls toilet, but also the smell of blood, sorry folks there is no way around this one.

I can often smell when it when I go into a loo right after someone who is menstruating has been in there. I would have been mortified with boys in the same space.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
You are right. Good schools do this in all sorts of ways to ensure that all get their voices heard.
I would put money on it that none of these schools introducing mixed sex toilets have bothered to seek the views of children and young people (let alone their parents). Yet again, it is the aggressive trans lobby influencing practice in schools.

@Babdoc

"So is every cubicle going to contain a Tampax dispenser as well as a sanitary disposal bin?"

In my school, they just did away with the vending machine for sanitary products in the main toilets (which were the unisex ones) -there were other bathrooms that were single sex, but located too far away to use between class, so you could only use them at lunchtime really. And once the unisex toilets were brought in, the lines for the female toilets (much smaller than the main unisex ones) were huge at lunch time. I don't think there were sanitary bins in all of the cubicles in the unisex toilets either, just some of them.

I used to wait until I was in class, then ask to use the bathroom, so that I could have a bit of privacy as everyone else was in lessons.

Dd said her school don’t have vending machines for sanitary products (toilets are single sex, no sharing facilities). I find that odd.

I don't remember vending machines.

Vending machines are outrageously expensive.

I'd hope in a school that the girls would be able t/ know to ask a friend or failing that a teacher, and the teacher or school nurse (do they still have those?) would be able to supply for free.

“Periods is a big difference though >> this is a primary ,and girls who start are allowed to use the staff toilet.”

That’s unsatisfactory, surely?

Why?

I assume it's teh staff toilet, it may be a visitor one. It's not shut away it's off a corridor and is a floor to ceiling door and always clean and cosy inside and has a sanitary disposal bin. It's the sort of thing where you might feel quite grown up at using the otherwise off limits grown up toilet
My only worry was girls being spotted and people knowing but DD said no issues.

I don't know that primary school toilets have them as standard?

This was teh situation before they remodeled teh girls toilets as well - no sanitary bin in there - it's a v small school so it would be expensive for just, well it's going to only be 1, 2 or 3 girls in the whole school who had started their periods.

I thougth it was a pragmatic solution and thoughtful to the girls TBH.

It set my mind at rest when DD started just going into yr6 and they told me that was the arrangement.

Girls are too often used by schools to help address the behaviour of boys. For example, being seated between disruptive boys to help mediate their behaviour, at the expense of the girl’s own education and social experience. It’s not girls’ responsibility to mediate boys’ behaviour. Equally, girls should not lose privacy and dignity as an easy means to improve the behaviour of boys

Every thing is down to us isn't it.

So lazy.

We are going to end up in a situation where girls just go to school anymore. Even girls schools are no longer girls school. Or shortly will no longer be girls schools. Men really are just trying to remind girls they shouldn't be there

I pity the girls at these schools I really really do. And shame on thise coming up with this crap. They seem to have forgotten what growing up is actually like