Trans Women are Women for Equality Act 2010 purposes (Penny Mordaunt MP)

[stephLDS18]

Well the Secretary of State has made her view absolutely clear!

Picking on a minority such as trans people, muslims, whoever and deciding they are "dangerous" never works

Men arent that much of a minority, and their danger to women has been proven over and over again...

twitter.com/Henriettaspoon/status/1037442290162298886

Wanderabout

"The GEO can't run a fair and open consultation on this basis. This is pretty clear from the wording of the consultation and Penny Mordaunt's comments."

Exactly so .. and it needs to be challenged legally ... I have passed a pic of the letter to someone in the hope that one of their lawyer colleagues can visit this.

Excellent news, the soon they get rid of the 2010 exceptions (That are never used) and work in the way all good service providers work - safeguarding - the better.

They are used. Female only services exist. You don't hear about it because it isn't trumpeted from the roof tops because either it isn't seen as a big deal or the service provider doesn't want to draw attention to themselves for obvious reasons. You might hear about it if a case went to court, but it hasn't.

Hetty Spoon really is good value. It's strange, OP that you appear to be contradicting yourself on Twitter, based on what you're saying here on this thread about the gov interpretation seeming wrong to you? Always best to be on the level with people, I think.

PS there is no definition of "trans woman" in that letter. It's not a definition used in the EA IIRC, so where does it come from?

Sorry a term not a definition. Clearly there is no definition as the term is not used!

At last! I have been banging on about the way self i/d is already a fact because of the Equality Act.

This is a flavour of the guidance issued by the Department for Equalities to service providers, charities and businesses:

‘Gender reassignment’ is when a person takes steps to alter the outward expression of their gender so that it better aligns with their sense of who they are or, in other words, their identity.
This means that if someone adopts a new gender role by changing their name, title and pronoun and/or by wearing different clothing, altering their body language, speech and hairstyle, they have reassigned their gender. As part of their gender reassignment some
people may choose to take hormones and/or have surgery, but medical intervention is not an essential part of gender reassignment".

In the introduction the government guidelines define transgender as

• transsexual, transgender, a crossdresser (transvestite), nonbinary and anyone else who may not conform to traditional gender roles. *

That's the government's definition, that is. I've taken the quotes from its official guidance: "Providing Services for Transgender Customers: a Guide" (gendered intelligence logo on the front cover).

I'll post another couple of extracts below. They show that the government has, effectively, thrown women under the bus without the GRA.

This is what the government is saying about toilets and changing rooms:

Good Practice 4: Assume everyone selects the facilities
appropriate to their gender.
A trans person should be free to select the facilities
(such as toilets or changing rooms) appropriate to the gender in which they present. For example, when a trans person starts to live in
their acquired gender on a full-time basis they should be
afforded the right to use the facilities appropriate to their acquired gender.
Service providers must avoid discriminating against anyone with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’

Now tell me something - isn't this EXACTLY what we are trying to prevent under GRA?

These guidelines open up our spaces to the Trans Umbrella - and this government has allowed it to happen since the guidelines were published in 2015.

These guidelines open up our spaces to the Trans Umbrella - and this government has allowed it to happen since the guidelines were published in 2015.

The Miller Trans Enquiry was the tipping point. To say it's been the case since 2010 is bullshit.

Let's all just remember that this particular governement does and says all manner of things that are later found in court to be illegal or discriminatory eg Universal Credit and disabled people, disability and sickness benefits etc.

If that is how they treat ill and disabled people, then why would they suddenly start treatng women any better than they have for decades/ all time?

All the gov support just proves that transwomen are men.

Excellent news, the soon they get rid of the 2010 exceptions (That are never used) and work in the way all good service providers work - safeguarding - the better

Can you tell which males are going to be peeping toms, rapists and abusers Sisters? Because if so you'd better train the police, prison services and all women and girls asap as no one else has worked out how to do it.

I'll post another couple of extracts below. They show that the government has, effectively, thrown women under the bus without the GRA.

Yes. This was done by the government to placate the trans lobby who weren't happy after the Miller Inquiry that they didn't plan to change the EA. They used these two pieces of guidance written by Gendered Intelligence as one of the reasons transgender people including non binary etc would not be disadvantaged by this. As you say and I have also said, this is self ID by the back door. I have realised this since a well known transactivist who gloatingly pointed this out to me in a social media argument a couple of years ago. But it was when I watched the Miller Enquiry oral evidence, read the report and recommendations and the government response, that I realised how this state of affairs had come about and it is pretty much down to the lobby/outreach groups like Gendered Intelligence. This was not the situation in 2010.

Let's all just remember that this particular governement does and says all manner of things that are later found in court to be illegal or discriminatory eg Universal Credit and disabled people, disability and sickness benefits etc.

Yes.

The Miller Trans Enquiry was the tipping point. To say it's been the case since 2010 is bullshit.

Wasn't it just?

The self-id policies pushed on the back of that have been a clear demonstration of the serious problems with that approach.

Latest fallout (directly traceable back to that enquiry and lobby group Gendered Intelligence being engaged by the government):
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-leeds-45436953?__twitter_impression=true

What kind of 'purported feminist' could sleep well in their bed having contributed to that?

Also the Swim England guidelines were written with Stonewall and gave similar "access all areas in women's spaces to MTFs" advice and they were revised. Challenge every time.

They would need to define what they mean by presenting a gender. The more they try to clarify the more convoluted they make the law because it is based on beliefs and not biology.
I have said it before and I say again:
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is a belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How will they punish the non believers?

But it was when I watched the Miller Enquiry oral evidence, read the report and recommendations and the government response, that I realised how this state of affairs had come about and it is pretty much down to the lobby/outreach groups like Gendered Intelligence. This was not the situation in 2010.

Me too.

Who was the TRA (is saying so doesn't out you)?

I'd rather not say if that's ok.

The interesting thing is that in the oral evidence there is little suggestion that males without GRC should get to use women's spaces. And when they talk about it it's acknowledged as a tricky issue and that women might find it a problem.

That's in the healthcare/hate crime one. I need to watch the others.

This means that if someone adopts a new gender role by changing their name, title and pronoun and/or by wearing different clothing, altering their body language, speech and hairstyle, they have reassigned their gender.

Without lists to compare hairstyles, clothing etc against, this is nonsense, isn't it? I know most of us know this, but it just leapt out at me yet again. And when we get a list (northern women!), there surely can't be anyone who doesn't think they are nonsense.

I agree that there is de facto Self id. I just don't think most people (including opportunistic males) realise this. Part of me wants to keep quiet about it because of the opportunistic males bit.

IKWYM Aye

How can the government say (with a straight face) that
single sex spaces will stay single sex
while at the same time saying that transgender people can use toilets and changing rooms compatible with their GENDER.

It doesn't square. it doesn't make sense. It is inconsistent. One part is a lie - and it's the part that effects the female sex.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357804-Transgender-inmate-Karen-White-admits-sexually-assaulting-female-prisoners-in-womens-estate-also-guilty-of-rape-prior-to-being-imprisoned