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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Russian Trolls and Identity Politics

27 replies

silentcrow · 05/09/2018 21:27

So. On the recent "Goths Against Trans People" thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3354669-Some-lighter-reading-gender-non-confirming-goths-oppress-trans-people?pg=1&order=

I jokingly said:

"Although I note the writer is "Russian-American" - are we sure this isn't all just coming out of a Russian troll farm to further destabilise America?

I'll get my (tin foil) hat." Grin

I was absolutely kidding, albeit with a whisper of unease because, hey, it's the internet, right? What should I come across tonight but this Medium article, written by the same people who compiled the "Inauthentic Selves" article following the money behind the trans movement (we discussed it here a few weeks ago: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3328210-Follow-the-money-who-is-funding-the-US-transborg).

Have a read. It's long, but seems thorough: medium.com/@sue.donym1984/russian-trolls-tried-influencing-the-identity-politics-of-the-left-so-why-arent-we-talking-about-cd324617d939

I just have one question. AIBU to stock up on tin foil?

(Ok, I am being very jokey about this, I know - I genuinely can't figure out whether it's for real or what, but if it is that's pretty scary.)

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 05/09/2018 21:29

Russia interfered in the US election, and Brexit.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum

You are welcome to join me in my cushion fort. Bring tin foil hat and sandwiches.

ShackUp · 05/09/2018 21:34

All the astroturfing is being done by Russian shills. It's destabilising because there's a 'look over here' element to it: we're so busy arguing identity politics that the massive changes go unnoticed.

silentcrow · 05/09/2018 21:35

Yup, that's why I was uneasy, but the Medium article also goes into influencing ID politics.

I suspect we may need an underground bunker at this point!

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heresyandwitchcraft · 05/09/2018 21:46

I didn't read that article, but definitely have been worried about the fervour around identity politics - especially on the "left." Also a lot of money/social capital in espousing such views... There are some very old hatreds awakening and being espoused openly. We're losing sight of basic freedoms, common sense and focusing on what is important. There is lots of mistrust of the "lefty" establishment (including from me, an ex-Guardian reader)... This climate spurs on the far right.... It all feels... incredibly destabilising. It's making everyone scared and ill at ease, especially online.
I've always wondered how and why this is happening now.
The "trans debate," how unreasonable people are in terms of discussing basic facts, and the money is really making me ask questions.
Will read the essay.
I've got lots of tin foil.
YANBU.

hackmum · 05/09/2018 21:49

Wow. That’s extraordinarily thorough. And yet also unsurprising. I’ve thought for a long time that Russian trolls were behind some of this trans activism.

woman11017 · 05/09/2018 22:44

It's what I'd assumed, and the anti semitism campaigns. Funding.......

Anlaf · 05/09/2018 22:48

Will have a read.

Express aim of the kremlin is to sow social discord and so you often see the Russian bots take both sides of an argument.

So not surprising if they are enflaming debate on social justice issues.

MsBeee · 05/09/2018 23:29

Adam Curtis touches on this in one of his Docs on bbc player. Long article, I skipped to the end. I think it is probably true.

There is also some very interesting stuff on how the internet actually rewires our brains and www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=kc_Jq42Og7Q

thewitchofwentworth · 06/09/2018 00:20

"Russian Trolls" are probably a for-hire group who will work for any group who pays them.

PerkingFaintly · 06/09/2018 00:28

Getting on thread to read later.

EatPeanuts · 06/09/2018 15:06

sobering reading ...

Instead, we now fight battles based on identity, insisting that those identities are our ‘authentic selves’, and that any possible disagreement with that identity, or political identity, is tantamount to violence and will be responded to in kind. To a dispassionate observer with a bad sense of humor, the situation is almost hilarious. But when the future is threatened by bands of politically charged idiots, weaponized by a foreign power, the situation stops being funny and starts being frustrating. If the Left wants to focus on these identity battles, which were encouraged by a foreign power to destabilize the left, then it is spent as an effective force.

BoreOfWhabylon · 06/09/2018 15:59

Hmm... the 'razors behind stickers' disinformation - apparently promulgated simultaneously on both sides of the Atlantic.

placemats · 06/09/2018 16:29

Exactly Bore Just what I was thinking.

MephistophelesApprentice · 06/09/2018 16:35

If it was true, it would be the perfect manoeuvre. It exploits the fundamentally alienating/factionalising nature of democracy and lets Putin say 'Look, that's what promoting homosexuality and minority rights does to a country, this is why we must fight against western influence."

woman11017 · 06/09/2018 16:49

Collective action and grass roots organising, exactly as we are doing is working well, as it usually does, and despite the paid tra SM workers.

The irony is that the tra industry allegedly built on identity politics and individualism is obviously structured in exactly the opposite way.

placemats · 06/09/2018 18:15

The 'fly over zone' in the USA actively promotes homophobia, racism, sexism and patriarchy, not forgetting they just love their brothels.

paintedwingsandgiantrings · 06/09/2018 19:23

I used to work in marketing. Advertising and marketing are humongous industries, that have been working for decades on the best ways to manipulate people (usually into spending money).

The internet is a dream to them - not only does it give them access to an unprecedented number of people, they now get feedback on what works, instead of having to guess. The industry's understanding of how to manipulate people can be really quite sophisticated.

But - no one tackles it as people don't want to admit we are so easily influenced.

Let me ask you - if companies can successfully influence the masses for profit - why wouldn't people / governments with the ability and inclination do it for other reasons?

silentcrow · 06/09/2018 20:09

Let me ask you - if companies can successfully influence the masses for profit - why wouldn't people / governments with the ability and inclination do it for other reasons?

In the dim and distant, I worked on some of that grey hat advertising manipulation, I've known it exists for a very long time. Quite a thing to see evidence of actual political interference, though.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 06/09/2018 20:53

Let me ask you - if companies can successfully influence the masses for profit - why wouldn't people / governments with the ability and inclination do it for other reasons?

My old, now deceased lecturer wrote numerous books on propaganda. He wrote specifically about this threat. In the 1990s.

Reading it back now, its quite frightening how close to the mark he was.

And yes, I've seen plenty about Russian bots using identity politics to destabilise. And yes trans stuff is one of those key issues.

Steve Bannon was actively stirring the nest through Breitbart to help Trump by targeting 'soccer moms' in Conservative swing states who were unhappy about the bathroom bill. Its on record as a deliberate strategy.

I'm not going to dish out tin foil hats for this reason. I'm well past that point.

BarrackerBarmer · 06/09/2018 21:22

Anonymous were tweeting about this a year ago, that division was being sown from Russia over 'gender'.

They also took that odious 'sprout' creature down a peg or two for being a vile misogynist. Which was nice of them. Smile

PerkingFaintly · 07/09/2018 10:28

OK, that article is very thorough and well worth reading in it's entirety.

But for anyone daunted by the length, you could try reading from the heading "Tumblr Too", about halfway down.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/09/2018 10:40

Also taking a pass on the tin foil hats. This has been an established tactic so it's isn't too much of a stretch to imagine it's happening here.

PerkingFaintly · 07/09/2018 10:42

It's an excellent briefing in the sheer scope of Russian interference.

Not just posting, but using social media (and in the US election, phone calls) to organise real life protests.

Here's the link again:
Russian Trolls Tried Influencing the Identity Politics Of The Left, But No One Is Talking About It.
medium.com/@sue.donym1984/russian-trolls-tried-influencing-the-identity-politics-of-the-left-so-why-arent-we-talking-about-cd324617d939

PerkingFaintly · 07/09/2018 10:44

Yep, Pain. Some of the material is familiar to me, eg the behaviour of the Russian "Blacktivist" accounts purportedly supporting Black Lives Matters.

So the Russians using trans stuff as well is pretty much what I was expecting. It fits their brief so well: find something divisive, pump it for all it's worth.

And there are going to be other areas where, as soon as someone sits down and does the analysis, they'll find "Vlad woz 'ere" scrawled in the small print.

PerkingFaintly · 07/09/2018 11:03

Some extracts, but it really is worth reading the article:

We are going to answer this question: what did the Russians intend with this?
[...]
This propaganda — let us call it what it is — sought to build resentment towards other groups, divide the left along identity politics lines, create discourse that was toxic, incite violence and create a distrust of the state and its mechanisms, such as the police.
[...]
‘Punch a Nazi’ glorified violent anti-fascists on the left and lionized them as fighting evil. Once such violent political action is legitimized, it is a short leap to treat other political opponents in the same way: such as the ‘Punch TERFs’ t-shirts that emerged over the course of the year at Pride Festivals and the violence directed at ‘TERFs’. ‘Die Cis Scum’ has gone from a meme to a threat. Legitimizing this political violence means there is ample justification for engaging with right-wing groups, who are also encouraged by the Kremlin and have had violence legitimized for them, too.

What stands out to me the most is that much of the content seems disturbing and designed to upset the viewer. This was from things as simple as discouraging the often college-bound or college-attending users of Tumblr by telling them that college was expensive, and they’d be saddled with a ‘shitty waitressing job’ anyway, to posting ‘avant-garde’, postmodernist style gifs asking the viewer to question reality. What is the purpose of this? Is it to make the viewer even more vulnerable to active measures? Is it to engender a sense of hopelessness in two extremely divided sides?

The purpose of all of this is to create chaos, to divide. Hence, we see the attempts to divide people by which particular groups they belong too.
[...]
No worse was this attempt to divide than the attacks on Hillary Clinton. Many accounts built up a fandom supporting Bernie Sanders — and with him out of the race, many of those accounts tried encouraging people either to not vote, or to vote Trump, as Hillary Clinton was literally the devil.
[...]
By dividing the left on this issue, and into various identity politics factions, Trump’s political path to the White House was made easier.

The other objective was to make the left distrust authority, the media, and especially the state and its mechanisms — such as the police.
[...]
It’s time to come together, as one, and repudiate Russian attempts to divide the left. We are stronger together.

I do not wish to blame every ill of the Left on Russia. But perhaps the question we need to be asking is where our thoughts and ideas ultimately come from, and who they could possibly serve, rather than living in blissful ignorance of the attempts of a hostile foreign power to subvert the entire Western left and push it to a violent extreme.